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psych
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13 Feb 2006, 7:40 pm

^^ that may be true, but we can only speculate how N.Korea might have turned out without nearly 1/2 a century of harsh US sanctions (travel as well as economic).



Laura
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15 Feb 2006, 3:54 pm

Iran or Iraq don't have nuclear weapons (or weapons of mass destruction), Bush is still an a**hole, and I get to sleep at night so there for nothings changed since the war of 'freedom' (yeah right if only death=freedom) began .Oh, and the world is successfully brainwashed by the media again so both Hitler and Bush can go skipping in a field of dead men and woman (small children should fit in there as well) and have a huge party with freedom being inevitable for Americans.

Apparently the world is run by BS yet again. 9/11 didn’t happen it was a government cover up. Americans are frightened i get to sit in New Zealand so no one thinks us exist and so i can ignore the world. Congratulations world i hope chopping down the Amazon rainforest works well for all your company’s as well. While I’m at it i hope that Hawaii doesn’t get further screwed from introduction of new species.


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Awesomelyglorious
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15 Feb 2006, 7:22 pm

Bush and Hitler are very different. Not really even comparable but yeah invading Iraq was a tactical blunder. We probably should have held back a little more because Iraq was never even related to our terrorist problem. Bush probably just wanted to one up his Dad. Whatever, hopefully the whole Iraq thing ends up well, although I fear it won't be a good investment.

Yeah, the world is run by crazy bs. It always has and always will be. It is not like we have ever had some great golden age where all people have gotten along and when petty problems were banished.



InZane
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16 Feb 2006, 1:26 am

I would tend to agree with Tekneek, Fogman and Eamonn as far as this topic goes. As I see it, the only known user of nuclear weapons has no right in the world to stop another nation from developing its nuclear capability for power generation. If the question of nuclear weapons arose, then stopping Iran would reek of double standards as, while there was considerable opposition to Pakistan's nuclear program, there was less for India's and virtually none for Israel's nuclear program, which, considering the skill and expertise of Israel and its 'aid-program' links with the good ol' US of A, might just be more comprehensive than that of the US. As far as reporting that goes, I assume everyone here is familiar with Mordechai Vanonu's treatment...The USA has vetoed every single resolution raised to have an inspection of Israel's nuclear program, with or without EU3 support.
Another point to raise I think is whether bases all around the world have resulted in a 'safer and more secure' United States...While defense spending spirals out of control, and the economy performs as sluggishly as it is doing now, the middle and lower classes are taking the brunt of the impact. If non-essential bases were dismantled and that money used for the betterment of the people back home, wouldn't that account as 'money well spent' rather than turning the Middle East into a US Armed Forces complex.
Just my .002


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psych
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16 Feb 2006, 3:58 am

Something often overlooked is the fact that the US (also UK and probably others) possess an large assortment of illegal thermonuclear devices. (this isnt some conspiracy thing, i think the exact specifications are in the public domain)

Now two wrongs dont make a right - BUT why shouldnt they (we) just keep the ones were officially allowed and disarm the others?



slave
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14 Jun 2012, 1:10 am

An old thread.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The risk of engagement seems to be rising , what are your thoughts?



AspieOtaku
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14 Jun 2012, 1:27 am

No worries in due time America will no longer be the world bully due to being flat broke, China will take Americas place and probably own America which is trillions of dollars in debt with China alot of it out of borrowing money from china to keep troops in Afganistan. China is rising up rapidly and has become a world super power while America is a fading super power.


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ruveyn
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14 Jun 2012, 9:07 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
No worries in due time America will no longer be the world bully due to being flat broke, China will take Americas place and probably own America which is trillions of dollars in debt with China alot of it out of borrowing money from china to keep troops in Afganistan. China is rising up rapidly and has become a world super power while America is a fading super power.


Unfortunately China is somewhat weighed down by her past. Corruption and inefficiency is rife in Chinese commerce. If China does become the world's "superpower" it will be a second rate superpower.

Many people do not understand what China is like. The 300,000,000 or so that life in the big cities near the cost are enjoying a comfortable industrial type lifestyle. Never mind that the air is unbreathable.

BUT!! Inland are 900,000,000 peasants who earn less than $2000 a year. That is why China will be for a long time to come a second rate nation. The vast majority of Chinese citizens are dirt poor.

In the U.S. there is a poor underclass but it never amounted to more than 1/4 the population in the worst of times. For a while the U.S. really was a middle class nation and quite productive. The Chinese never have even come close and are unlikely to.

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Jojoba
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14 Jun 2012, 10:29 am

Iran has many enemies in the world. Most arab countries in the middle east want to see the Persian's stop their nuclear ambitions. Israel, India, and Europe are putting pressure on the Iranians also. Even China is now telling the Iranain's to be serious concerning the situation. I'd guess something additional to the cyber attacks is going to happen sometime in the near future.

For example:

"China’s Crude Dealings Reveal Sophisticated Calculations"

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... culations/

&

"China Whispers to Iran: “Please, Get Serious”"

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... t-serious/



Joker
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14 Jun 2012, 10:34 am

China is not a threat to America.



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14 Jun 2012, 2:01 pm

I imagine we'll find out after the election this year. I doubt Israel will act unilaterally and the Arab countries certainly won't do it. They'll rely on targeted assassinations and sabotage to delay Iran's development of weapons until it is politically feasible for the US to invade. We'll get all the heat while sacrificing all the blood and treasure and Israel, the Arabs, and Europe all get what they want.



AspieOtaku
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14 Jun 2012, 3:30 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6loXIaJZI&feature=related[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rOssVrhQmg&feature=related[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arey1_Trgjk&feature=related[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmYkRF5t1dk&feature=related[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws5y8A_zUsc&feature=related[/youtube] Game over man Game over!!


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Joker
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14 Jun 2012, 4:40 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6loXIaJZI&feature=related[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rOssVrhQmg&feature=related[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arey1_Trgjk&feature=related[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmYkRF5t1dk&feature=related[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws5y8A_zUsc&feature=related[/youtube] Game over man Game over!!


I don't think so I mean we can beat them our military i better then theirs.



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15 Jun 2012, 12:59 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I doubt that there will be payback. Any attempt to go to war with us would probably start WW3. Besides if anyone was going to get revenge they would probably try to hurt our economy which would probably still be very important in the world market even after our fall and would probably hurt the global economy to some extent and not be too tolerable.

There will be no such thing as a WW3. The nuclear bomb made large scale, open warfare between major powers impracticable. As the Cold War has shown already, for the foreseeable future, wars will be limited conflicts fought on a regional level. Not the rapid and devastating massacres of the two World Wars, just minor, but constant warfare. Eris still has a lot of work on her hands.



JNathanK
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15 Jun 2012, 12:28 pm

Let them have their nuclear power plants and bombs. I think were more likely to have a nuclear war if we invade them to stop them from having a bomb, since China and Russia are their trading partners, than if we just allow them to have it. It would just be a stalemate like in the SU, and I understand why they're eager to have a bomb. Countries with nuclear arsenals don't get invaded, because nobody wants to mess with them. That's just how it is. I don't think Bush jr. helped the situation either when he started erroneously equating NK, Iran, and Iraq with the WWII axis powers, since none of them even had any real connections with each other, other than the fact that the US government wants to invade them,

Sure, they may give bombs to terrorists like they say, but the same argument was made about Russia. I think they're going to keep track of their nuclear arsenal, because they don't want to be responsible for the end of the world. I like Iranian people as a generality, and they're rather modern, Women are allowed to hold jobs and drive, Sunni Muslims aren't persucted as Shiites are in the neighboring Sunni regions (in fact many Iraqis fled to Iran for refuge during the Iran-Iraq war and gulf wars), Jews aren't walled up in ghettos, etc. They get lumped in with their Sunni neighbors in Saudi Arabia, a confederacy of medieval, absolute monarchies that are subsidized by the US government, but they're very different in terms of culture.

Iran actually had a modern, constitutional government at one time, until the CIA and MI6 overthrew their democratically elected president in the 50's and restored absolute power to the Shah. It was because he wanted to nationalize oil production and leave BP and Shell out. When revolution did come, it was a lot like the Russian and French revolutions in that the power vacuum was filled by the biggest sociopaths. I don't think creating further instability with bombing raids is going to help Iranians though.

That's another thing too. Oppressive governments justify their selves through spreading the perception of an outside threat. That's how it was in the SU with the threat of Western, capitalist sharks during the cold war, and that's how it is in Iran today. When George Bush and Obama keep making open threats toward Iran, the government run, Iranian media plays footage of that and explains to the public how its not the time for reform. They justify oppression against protesters and reformers as necessary because of the Western element that seeks to topple their Islamic Republic. In the Soviet republics, there was similar repression for decades, but it didn't end until east-west relations cooled down under Gorbachev, and the state couldn't justify the oppression and low standard of living through the fear of external invasion anymore. If we really want Iran's government to topple, the western governments should cool their rhetoric down so reformers can change it from the inside out, just like during the days of Perestroika.