Do we still want muslims in our western nations?

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08 Nov 2009, 8:51 am

I think people of all cultures/religions should be welcome, as long as they don't try to impose their own beliefs on others. For example, I think it's ridiculous that some people are trying to get Sharia law introduced into the British legal system. When it comes down to it, I'm not keen on the idea of ANY legal system being based on religious values, but least of all in a country where that religion is not even the dominant one. A minority should not have dominion over the majority.

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08 Nov 2009, 8:58 am

iquanyin wrote:

why? are they doing something other humans don't do?

DOWN WITH HUMANS!

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08 Nov 2009, 9:56 am

Orwell wrote:

MathGirl wrote:

Islam does not encourage murder.

It encourages murder of enemies, and orders murder of apostates (people who leave Islam).

I'll have to look into that. I do not remember finding any specific evidence of this in the Quran, though.

Quote:

The word "Islam" stands for "peace".

A popular misconception. The word "Islam" means submission (to Allah). Muslims (Muslim means "one who submits" (to Allah)) claim that this submission to Allah gives them peace.

It means both.

Quote:

Additionally, the religion itself does not follow what is said in the Quran; it is more influenced by the culture of the Muslims from different regions.

Most Muslims would take great offense to this claim.

It was actually a very devoted Muslim who told me this.

Quote:

Please do not generalize about Islam.

Is that not what you have been doing?

I've stated that there is only one denomination of Islam that directs its followers towards hostility and violence. So no, because I'm not generalizing that all of the denominations are like that.

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gina-ghettoprincess
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08 Nov 2009, 10:03 am

MathGirl wrote:

Orwell wrote:

MathGirl wrote:

Islam does not encourage murder.

It encourages murder of enemies, and orders murder of apostates (people who leave Islam).

I'll have to look into that. I do not remember finding any specific evidence of this in the Quran, though.

Isn't it the Hadith that teaches the stuff about killing people? I'm not sure about that, I think that was what I remember hearing, but it might be wrong.

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08 Nov 2009, 10:10 am

Quote:

Additionally, the religion itself does not follow what is said in the Quran; it is more influenced by the culture of the Muslims from different regions.

Most Muslims would take great offense to this claim.

It was actually a very devoted Muslim who told me this.

The person is not devoted because they say they are devoted....

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08 Nov 2009, 10:19 am

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:

I think people of all cultures/religions should be welcome, as long as they don't try to impose their own beliefs on others.

It might be argued that the whole goal of certain(many? All?) cultures and religions is to impose their beliefs on others. Some are pretty subtle about it, others no so. Your very statement suggests this: You want to prevent certain cultures from acting upon their mores and beliefs. You suggest impositions.

I'm playing devils advocate here. I am all for the melting pot, the admixture of genetics, immigration wholesale, the rise of rationality, and the fall of millennium long control systems.

Yeah, I want to impose my beliefs too....

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08 Nov 2009, 10:36 am

one day all "abrahamists" will be gone from the earth, inchallah!

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08 Nov 2009, 10:47 am

TheOddGoat wrote:

Left handed people are evil because "sinister" comes from the latin "sinestra" which meant "left"!

Looking at our current heads of Congress I have to say this one's stunningly accurate.

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08 Nov 2009, 11:14 am

TheOddGoat wrote:

Quote:

Additionally, the religion itself does not follow what is said in the Quran; it is more influenced by the culture of the Muslims from different regions.

Most Muslims would take great offense to this claim.

It was actually a very devoted Muslim who told me this.

The person is not devoted because they say they are devoted....

So, you subscribe to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, eh, OddGoat?

The fallacy runs like so:
"No Scotsman takes sugar with his porridge."
"But my uncle, Scotty McScottsman from Glasgow, takes sugar with his porridge every morning, and has done so for his entire life!"
"No true Scotsman takes sugar with his porridge."

Similarly, you seem to be redefining what Muslims do by claiming that if one of them does something other than your definition, he's not a true Muslim. Makes "proving" your alleged point much easier, I must say...

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08 Nov 2009, 12:07 pm

MathGirl wrote:

Quote:

Additionally, the religion itself does not follow what is said in the Quran; it is more influenced by the culture of the Muslims from different regions.

Most Muslims would take great offense to this claim.

It was actually a very devoted Muslim who told me this.

That surprises me. Most Muslims attach great reverence to the Koran.

Quote:

Please do not generalize about Islam.

Is that not what you have been doing?

I've stated that there is only one denomination of Islam that directs its followers towards hostility and violence. So no, because I'm not generalizing that all of the denominations are like that.

You have made plenty of general statements about Islam; it's impossible to participate in a discussion about Islam without doing so. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. Of course, what you meant was "Please don't make uncomplimentary generalizations about Islam."

And you are factually incorrect, there is more than one group within Islam that promotes hostility and violence.

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08 Nov 2009, 12:40 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:

TheOddGoat wrote:

Quote:

Additionally, the religion itself does not follow what is said in the Quran; it is more influenced by the culture of the Muslims from different regions.

Most Muslims would take great offense to this claim.

It was actually a very devoted Muslim who told me this.

The person is not devoted because they say they are devoted....

Strawman

Muslims must follow Islam, that is the definition of being a muslim, no?

If I claim to be a devoted muslim but drink alcohol, eat pork and shave am I really devoted to it?

Islam is not flexible, if a muslim doesn't follow it exactly they aren't devoted... No matter how much they say they are.

They may be devoted to doing what they are doing, but if what they are doing isn't exactly as islam demands then they aren't a devoted muslim, just a differently devoted person.

I am a devoted environmentalist, I also have a car that runs on coal and I spend my weekends burning forests and annihilating endangered animals.

techstepgenr8tion
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08 Nov 2009, 2:38 pm

TheOddGoat wrote:

Islam is not flexible, if a muslim doesn't follow it exactly they aren't devoted... No matter how much they say they are.

They may be devoted to doing what they are doing, but if what they are doing isn't exactly as islam demands then they aren't a devoted muslim, just a differently devoted person.

I am a devoted environmentalist, I also have a car that runs on coal and I spend my weekends burning forests and annihilating endangered animals.

I agree that even though many Muslims to the American 'Catholic' thing by cutting up the doctrine and taking only what they want it is true that the religion overall is much less malleable, much more precise in exactly what's supposed to be done (its a government prescription as well of course) and in that respect and its more clear that they are abstracting the original message - a) to keep with their heritage rather than throw their parents religion and culture away and b) going with their own personal inclinations as in they don't believe in violence, maybe have come to the conclusion that careful observation of reality is a holy book unto itself, and because of that they're very careful on how literally they take what they read.

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08 Nov 2009, 3:12 pm

Butting into the debate about if you eat pork, you're not a Muslim thing here - It is absolutely true.

Quran 4:145 wrote:

Surely, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths (grade) of the Fire.”

-- Islam specifically states that those who pick and choose will go to the lowest, hottest depths of hell. There is a Quranic-Arabic word for these people - munafiq.

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08 Nov 2009, 3:26 pm

ZEGH8578 wrote:

one day all "abrahamists" will be gone from the earth, inchallah!

The Jews will stick around just to give you a hard time.

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08 Nov 2009, 3:59 pm

I'd love to know what Malcolm X's take on all this kind of thing would have been....

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08 Nov 2009, 4:07 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

careful observation of reality is a holy book unto itself

Awesome statement. Can I steal it for my signature?

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