ABOUT RELIGION

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Sand
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24 Dec 2009, 12:16 am

SporadSpontan wrote:

Sand wrote:

SporadSpontan wrote:

Sand - if it comes across as vague it's because I'm trying to avoid preaching my beliefs explicitly. But if you want to unleash me I will! And what exactly is wrong with an admirable uncommunicated endpoint?

Because it is a noisy way of saying nothing. Whether it is admirable or not is not explicit and it has all the characteristics of a scam.

Take an orgasm for instance: it's an admirable uncommunicated endpoint. So it follows it's a scam?! lol

If your orgasms lack communication you probably indulge in promoting them alone. Its more fun with a partner.

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24 Dec 2009, 12:40 am

haha! lol! That's the point - partner or no partner, communication is not necessarily involved. So now, answer the question (if you want) - does it make it a scam?

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bigblock
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24 Dec 2009, 5:26 am

Sand wrote:

SporadSpontan wrote:

Sand wrote:

SporadSpontan wrote:

Sand wrote:

I have never worshiped anybody and I am not sure what that is all about. Is it a kind of blind obedience to whatever is advised? Is it a matter of kneeling down in an abject position and muttering religious formulas? Is it praying for a god to change things because you don't like the way god did what he did? Hard to know.

I suppose if there are any gods I would worship for extreme ability to give pleasure and wisdom I would choose the 3 Marx brothers. I think there were one or two more but they made little impact. Groucho, of course was the head man while Harpo and Chico gave great support. And, of course, as a triumvirate, they work out well. Since they are all dead they are quite spiritual and I find them far more congenial than any other gods I have come across.

For me worship is about taking a chosen outer other as a blueprint for my own inner transformation. And I agree - whatever you choose should be able to produce EXTREME pleasure and wisdom. I don't think it matters, the object. But the meaning it represents for us and how much it inspires us does.

There are many individuals, living and historical, that I admire but worship is another thing altogether. Nobody, as far as I know, can indicate an entire form and concept to match my particular experiences and understanding. Nor do I care to search for one. For we are all, each one of us, unique in possibilities and it is our problem in life to discover who and what we are and what we can become. If there is such a thing as a mission in life, that is it.

Discovering who we are is exactly as you said - a problem. I prefer to leave that as one of the unsolvable mysteries of the universe. I'm more interested in what I want to become - in terms of a state of mind. And won't settle for anything less than an ultimate state.

So the idea is not exactly to find an object that matches you internally, but rather to find your ideals and project these onto a chosen external object/being that best fits with these.

The reason for this is because by constantly associating ourselves with this 'symbol' of our ideals it is much faster to achieve a transformation from a mere mundane existence into something much higher. Without the reliance on a symbol of our projected ideals the search for the answers about our existence can only continue in a tentative and pedestrian way.

The way it works is through a process of familiarisation - this is the definition of meditation according to the tradition I follow at least. Yes I think it's possible to transform one's state of mind through reliance on constant familiarisation of certain thoughts alone. We do this all the time without effort - for better or worse, probably mostly worse - given the state of the world we live in. But there is something powerful about the usage of symbols, and I'm not sure if I can explain even a fraction of it . It's something about working on a deeper level of the mind that a symbol can connect to directly, whereas ordinary conceptual thought only wishes it could.

Too vague and undefined to be useful. Whatever "ultimate" means it conveys merely some sort of admirable endpoint totally uncommunicated.

Not vauge

Mental conditioning... Anyone for TONY ROBBINS (the miracle man) simple is better sometimes folks.

Mental conditioning... a hidden reality... You want it. You got it

Just like cigarettes it works. No religion required. ( I don't mind a little religious structure)

TONY ROBBINS Awaken the Giant Within.

Reference: I convinced my mother to read it her philosophies are christian but years of Rudolf Steiner are her fundamentals and she gives Tony Robbins Awaken the Giant Within a Thumbs up.

Wow new stuff here though!

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iamnotaparakeet
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24 Dec 2009, 6:04 am

bigblock wrote:

#1 If religion is good, than it must encourage righteousness; So I beleive in all religions that do so fully, because I beleive in good.

You need to know where your definitions of "good" and "righteousness" come from. You partially define "good" in terms of "righteousness" in this above statement, but then "righteousness" still needs to come from somewhere. Do you get your definition of righteousness from society? The culture you grew up in? A philosopher or philosophers whose works you have read? From novels or movies or television? Where you get your definition of righteousness from, assuming their philosophy is internally coherent, is where you will end up again, basically in a circle.

Sand
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24 Dec 2009, 6:19 am

SporadSpontan wrote:

haha! lol! That's the point - partner or no partner, communication is not necessarily involved. So now, answer the question (if you want) - does it make it a scam?

Making love is always communication. Fu cking may not be communicating the message intended but it communicates something. Masturbating, like sneezing, does not communicate. It merely expels slime.

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24 Dec 2009, 6:35 am

Um not sure what to say.

But iamnotaparakeet

I believe what I wrote, if that's what you trying to debate. The good is evident to me and that is my proof of god. My def of righteousness is not subjective, its black and white.

Even failures can be righteous if driven by good. (again nothing to do with subjectivity)

to oversimplify Good = God

this philosophy has held in my life for nearly twenty years and yet I am SUCCESSFULL.

I am not Holy, I am not Dirt, I am not a professor but I am a thinker, No Formal Education to hang my hat on, so I wear it instead with a little dirt too. I feel spiritual when i can get out of anxiety for a time. I aspire to learn more NEW THINGS, but can't input being told to scrap my beliefs, doubt my soundness of thought, and be offered nothing in return no preferred replacement. (Like killing a deer and then just looking at it) Does not compute.
Convince me there is a better way to see things, show me. And help me write these ideas more clearly so others can have a clear glimpse of this wonderful philosophy.

I haven't done much writing since I finished high school a decade ago. So if my meanings aren't getting through lets blame it on lack of education rather than my personal internal cohesion.

Im sorry Im tired and probably ,missed the meaning.

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SporadSpontan
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24 Dec 2009, 8:46 am

Sand wrote:

SporadSpontan wrote:

haha! lol! That's the point - partner or no partner, communication is not necessarily involved. So now, answer the question (if you want) - does it make it a scam?

Making love is always communication. Fu cking may not be communicating the message intended but it communicates something. Masturbating, like sneezing, does not communicate. It merely expels slime.

Wow Sand - it seems like you're really hung up on this. But if you don't mind, may I gently redirect you back to THE POINT OF THE POST?! It seems that you're avoiding providing a logical response - not because you don't want to - but because you don't have one!

Leaving the communication aspect aside - it's never made sense to me anyway - if you wish to define the ultimate as an admirable endpoint I'm failing to see whose side you're on - yours or mine? lol!

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Sand
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24 Dec 2009, 10:14 am

SporadSpontan wrote:

Sand wrote:

SporadSpontan wrote:

haha! lol! That's the point - partner or no partner, communication is not necessarily involved. So now, answer the question (if you want) - does it make it a scam?

Making love is always communication. Fu cking may not be communicating the message intended but it communicates something. Masturbating, like sneezing, does not communicate. It merely expels slime.

I answered the question. A sexual act between two people is communication although it might not involve spoken language so it's not a scam.

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24 Dec 2009, 10:25 am

Nup, still missing my point.

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Sand
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24 Dec 2009, 10:36 am

SporadSpontan wrote:

Nup, still missing my point.

It's evident I don't understand your point. Can you rephrase it?

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24 Dec 2009, 5:20 pm

Sand wrote:

SporadSpontan wrote:

Nup, still missing my point.

It's evident I don't understand your point. Can you rephrase it?

We're talking about whether or not it's possible to attain a state of mind that transcends the mundane existence we currently experience.

I'm suggesting it might be achieved through a process where the practice far surpasses the theory, where the real benefit is achieved through experience rather than mere understanding. In other words - that it goes beyond communication.

For example - take the flag of your nation. When you see the flag it instantly conjures up a certain meaning that doesn't require words to express it.

As for an admirable endpoint, or an ultimate state - I used an example previously where it is possible to reach a successful conclusion. I wanted to counter your suggestion that an ultimate state was not something worth striving for in terms of our need for happiness.

EDIT: And as far as being skeptical in regards to the possibility of achieving an ultimate state (and I'm hesitant to use this example again after observing how distracting it can be for you) -
Take a pre-pubescent child: they've never experienced orgasm. They wouldn't even be able to conceive of one. Does this mean the potential for orgasm doesn't exist as a latent possibility within them?

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Sand
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24 Dec 2009, 10:23 pm

SporadSpontan wrote:

Sand wrote:

SporadSpontan wrote:

Nup, still missing my point.

It's evident I don't understand your point. Can you rephrase it?

First of all I do not find my existence mundane. Every moment I am alive and able to see, hear, feel smell, taste is a delight to me. Every small fruit fly sitting on a banana near my sink is a small individual that I try to see how it reacts to my approach, every raindrop that meanders down my window in a rain makes an interesting path. My pet sparrow talks to me, sings to my radio, sits on mu shoulder and pulls on my hair. Who needs ultimate moments? They are all wonderful indications that I am alive and well and fascinated. Every stain on a wall contains thousands of unusual images that form and change and vary as I watch and sink into deep concentrations on their patterns. I have no idea what you are looking for.

bigblock
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25 Dec 2009, 3:32 am

If you take in religion from all perspectives
Then you will know more

But ill bet its tougher for people on this site to join religion than others that follow leaders more blindly.

The sex as a metaphor is kinda extreme here...

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Sand
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25 Dec 2009, 3:43 am

bigblock wrote:

Religion is to me an obvious perverted vicious scam and I am sure I can convince nobody of this by reason so I don't try.

bigblock
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25 Dec 2009, 4:06 am

Sand I hear you. but I am not afraid of the shadows. And am detached from the horrors that millions have suffered at the hands of deviant religious leaders.

I just like the atmosphere of our community church.
Some churches do not carry the burdens of sin.

Hypocrisy is reality though.

I'm cool with what you have to say, just not comfortable with sexual contexts.

(Note I edited: Here to Hear, the third word)

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Sand
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25 Dec 2009, 4:37 am

bigblock wrote:

I don't have any problems with body functions. Sex, like breathing, farting, pissing, sneezing etc are all fine with me. Religious attitudes on this are totally insane.

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