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Sand
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08 Feb 2010, 5:55 am

Perhaps, if equality is too leveling, it might be better to seek social minimums such as education, health and the basic necessities to stay alive.



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08 Feb 2010, 10:14 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
I'll give you the point for the Orwell-Vexcallibur exchange. But Orwell - in general - seems to be arguing against or at least doubting social equality as an ideal on the basis of differences in each persons profile of strengths and weaknesses. I don't see that as fundamentally valid (at least when it comes to the benefits of equality of opportunity and some income equality).

In that case, I was just rejecting the argument that egalitarianism is good because humans are the same, since I think a couple people tried to go that route. I am not, in general, hoping to refute egalitarianism on the basis of human variation.

I've seen some solid consequentialist arguments for egalitarianism in this thread, especially from you. Would your position flip if an inequal social system served society better?


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Tensu
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12 Feb 2010, 1:48 pm

xenon13 wrote:
I find it hard to understand people who say that they have AS being against egalitarianism. The lack of egalitarianism is a system of rigid hierarchy, where those higher up can mercilessly violate those below. AS people usually don't fare too well in such a setup. I'm sure there are smart people who complain about how the Procrustean setup at school set them back and that their talents should have been better recognised, well, the more unequal world does not reward simply intelligence, it rewards those who are better at manipulating others, those with superior social skills. The popular people are the ones who are selected to be supreme in a highly stratified hierarchical system, not those who are simply smart.

I don't see it inconsistent with egalitarianism to recognise the talents of people. It's simply that we won't horribly crush those whose talents are not valued, and remember, they are more inclined to recognise the talents of the popular and the socially proficient, which usually does not include AS people.


That hierarchy is the result of people being scum. Even in an egalitarian society, people will still be scum. If egalitarianism was real and not just another way in which people demean, belittle, and take advantage of one another, I could support it. sadly, that is not the case.

I never had much trouble manipulating the other students. Half the school seemed to flock towards me due to the fact that I was always in very open and dramatic rebellion against the school's joke of an administration, and people are drawn to rebellion. The other half despised me because I was different, and that which is different is an object of fear and scorn. I could always best those students who did oppose me when I had an interest in doing so, but that was often not the case, as I cared little about what the other student thought of me.



Sand
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12 Feb 2010, 7:43 pm

Tensu wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
I find it hard to understand people who say that they have AS being against egalitarianism. The lack of egalitarianism is a system of rigid hierarchy, where those higher up can mercilessly violate those below. AS people usually don't fare too well in such a setup. I'm sure there are smart people who complain about how the Procrustean setup at school set them back and that their talents should have been better recognised, well, the more unequal world does not reward simply intelligence, it rewards those who are better at manipulating others, those with superior social skills. The popular people are the ones who are selected to be supreme in a highly stratified hierarchical system, not those who are simply smart.

I don't see it inconsistent with egalitarianism to recognise the talents of people. It's simply that we won't horribly crush those whose talents are not valued, and remember, they are more inclined to recognise the talents of the popular and the socially proficient, which usually does not include AS people.


That hierarchy is the result of people being scum. Even in an egalitarian society, people will still be scum. If egalitarianism was real and not just another way in which people demean, belittle, and take advantage of one another, I could support it. sadly, that is not the case.

I never had much trouble manipulating the other students. Half the school seemed to flock towards me due to the fact that I was always in very open and dramatic rebellion against the school's joke of an administration, and people are drawn to rebellion. The other half despised me because I was different, and that which is different is an object of fear and scorn. I could always best those students who did oppose me when I had an interest in doing so, but that was often not the case, as I cared little about what the other student thought of me.


It seems your total contempt for everybody has worked out well for you. Congratulations.



Tensu
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12 Feb 2010, 7:52 pm

Ahhh... It's good to have a nemesis again... :wink:



Sand
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12 Feb 2010, 8:12 pm

Tensu wrote:
Ahhh... It's good to have a nemesis again... :wink:


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