U.S. nuclear attacks cause cancer epidemic in Iraq
True nuclear weapons don't leave much in the way of radioactive fallout anymore, like I detailed in earlier posts greater efficiency has led to reduced waste and thus reduced residual effects after a nuclear weapon has been used. The damage done by a nuke comes from it's massive heat and explosive force, neither of which is present when DU munitions are used, they are about as dissimilar as possible in effect. But enough on that.
What I'm arguing about here is the way that dishonest language has been used in an attempt to lead the reader to a predetermined point of view, rather than simply presenting the known facts and allowing the reader to draw their own conclusions. You can argue that since DU is a waste product of nuclear production that using it in a weapon makes that automatically a "nuclear weapon", but I don't think you'd argue that the presence of the toxic chemical lead in conventional bullets makes them into "chemical weapons". The argument is disingenuous at best and outright deceptive at worst, and distracts from the very real questions surrounding the use of DU projectiles. Better to let the facts speak for themselves than to try and manipulate people's reactions with loaded terms, it weakens the argument and creates the appearance of a shaky foundation even if the information is otherwise solid.
Here again you are trying to weasel your way out of the radioactive dust that is the problem. No doubt uranium and lead can be poisonous but it is the ingested and inhaled alpha emitting uranium that is under discussion.That is nuclear emission damage.
"Weasel" my way out of what? Have I posted anything disputing that inhaling DU dust is not a good long term plan? Have I not even speculated that my country's motives for using DU may be less than pure? Re-read the thread if you have to, I'm not here to argue the health affects of DU exposure, even though the questionably sourced article linked in the OP is a very ripe target indeed, I'm here arguing against manipulative practices is web posting and journalism. You said that no one intimated that a nuclear explosion took place, but think about this honestly, if you asked people on the street what thought comes to mind when they hear the term "nuclear attacks", how many of them do you really think would say "depleted uranium bombardment" vs a mushroom cloud?
BTW, nice weasel move yourself there, trying to draw me in to arguing the health effects when I've made it very clear that I'm not challenging them, maybe you meant it as a compliment...
"Weasel" my way out of what? Have I posted anything disputing that inhaling DU dust is not a good long term plan? Have I not even speculated that my country's motives for using DU may be less than pure? Re-read the thread if you have to, I'm not here to argue the health affects of DU exposure, even though the questionably sourced article linked in the OP is a very ripe target indeed, I'm here arguing against manipulative practices is web posting and journalism. You said that no one intimated that a nuclear explosion took place, but think about this honestly, if you asked people on the street what thought comes to mind when they hear the term "nuclear attacks", how many of them do you really think would say "depleted uranium bombardment" vs a mushroom cloud?
BTW, nice weasel move yourself there, trying to draw me in to arguing the health effects when I've made it very clear that I'm not challenging them, maybe you meant it as a compliment...
I'm terribly sorry but unimpressed with what the average schmuck in the street interprets from reading the news.The whole era of the G:W:Bush administration elected and re-elected testifies to the man in the street's wisdom.
If people had nuclear waste dumped in their backyard they'd be screaming "Nuclear" this and "Nuclear" that as loud as people can hear it. It's nuclear waste. They attack people with nuclear waste. The media does not call it that but it should because that is what it is. The media uses the words the Pentagon wants them to use and talks about the issue as much as the Pentagon wants them to talk about it - that is as few times as possible! Think about the name "depleted uranium" - it has built-in something for the apologists, the word "depleted" - it's uranium with all the bad stuff removed from it, so it must be all right, and after all our side is using it and we wouldn't use anything we wouldn't want to be littering our own land... sure that's so, sure...
Face it, the Western powers are committing a major crime here and they refuse to report it because it's the silver bullet that helps with a qualitative advantage on the battlefield and the generals and the armed forces don't want to give it up, even if clouds of this dust sweep the earth and kill us all!
Hmm, trying on a little elitism, are we? Take it as a compliment that I don't think it suits you. Sadly, I mostly agree with your assessment powers of perception of the masses, but I can't tell if you're saying it's OK to mislead them because they won't know better, or are you implying that speaking to people in a manner that they will correctly interpret is somehow beneath you? When Stephen Hawking wrote his mass market books, did he couch them in language that only a fellow physicist would understand? No he wrote them in such a way as to explain complex concepts to the common man, because he wanted his message to be as widely understood and disseminated as possible, and you don't accomplish that by speaking down to people or by misleading them. If writing in such a way to be understood by the widest number of people is good enough for Dr. Hawking, I'd say it's good enough for the rest of us.
Hmm, trying on a little elitism, are we? Take it as a compliment that I don't think it suits you. Sadly, I mostly agree with your assessment powers of perception of the masses, but I can't tell if you're saying it's OK to mislead them because they won't know better, or are you implying that speaking to people in a manner that they will correctly interpret is somehow beneath you? When Stephen Hawking wrote his mass market books, did he couch them in language that only a fellow physicist would understand? No he wrote them in such a way as to explain complex concepts to the common man, because he wanted his message to be as widely understood and disseminated as possible, and you don't accomplish that by speaking down to people or by misleading them. If writing in such a way to be understood by the widest number of people is good enough for Dr. Hawking, I'd say it's good enough for the rest of us.
I don't think I am overestimating you by assuming you are not the average guy on the street. I am not talking to the general public, I am talking to you and you seem to have a reasonable grasp of what is chemical poison and what is radiation danger. One doesn't have to be elite to be aware of some basic scientific terminology.
You'd be quite right on both counts, but we're not just talking about you and me here, (or at least I'm not) the thread was simply posted on a board for all to see. I'd think you'd be with me on this one, what I'm arguing for here is essentially journalistic ethics, and I'm doing it as much for the OP's benefit as anyone else's. When you put spin on something, you're betting your credibility against the intelligence of your audience, and as we've seen here, it can backfire badly. Notice that we're not really discussing what he wanted to draw attention to (The effects of toxic/radioactive US munitions on Iraqis), but rather going back and forth over the question of how the information was presented and the effect of that on it's credibility, probably not his intent.
You'd be quite right on both counts, but we're not just talking about you and me here, (or at least I'm not) the thread was simply posted on a board for all to see. I'd think you'd be with me on this one, what I'm arguing for here is essentially journalistic ethics, and I'm doing it as much for the OP's benefit as anyone else's. When you put spin on something, you're betting your credibility against the intelligence of your audience, and as we've seen here, it can backfire badly. Notice that we're not really discussing what he wanted to draw attention to (The effects of toxic/radioactive US munitions on Iraqis), but rather going back and forth over the question of how the information was presented and the effect of that on it's credibility, probably not his intent.
I think we understand each other. I am not making propaganda but merely emphasizing that radioactivity is involved. And radioactivity is unfortunately a good deal more dangerous and persistent and perhaps more difficult to detect with common methods than chemical poisoning.
Ahh, I knew we'd stop talking past each other at some point, just like old times...
I've got a bit of a specialized body of knowledge on weapon technology, so I guess I don't draw quite so hard a distinction between chemical poisoning and radiation poisoning, they both end the same way even if the routes diverge at times. I tend to think of radiation poisoning as somewhat "creepier" if you know what I mean, but chemical poisoning is nothing to sneeze at either. Now if you really want to give yourself the willies, look up cobalt jacketing for nuclear warheads, those things were pure evil, and that's coming from a guy that has a garage full of weapon prototypes.
Ahh, I knew we'd stop talking past each other at some point, just like old times...
I've got a bit of a specialized body of knowledge on weapon technology, so I guess I don't draw quite so hard a distinction between chemical poisoning and radiation poisoning, they both end the same way even if the routes diverge at times. I tend to think of radiation poisoning as somewhat "creepier" if you know what I mean, but chemical poisoning is nothing to sneeze at either. Now if you really want to give yourself the willies, look up cobalt jacketing for nuclear warheads, those things were pure evil, and that's coming from a guy that has a garage full of weapon prototypes.
I read about the cobalt business about 40 years ago. As bad as the neutron bomb that would kill living things but leave structures untouched. I think Teller was enthusiastic about that. The cobalt apparently has a very long half life of intense radioactivity and would be ideal for sterilizing the planet if that's what military idiots favored. I always thought the purpose of war was to conquer the bad guys, not make he planet uninhabitable. You never know.
The U.S. has not used any nuclear weapons at all in Iraq. The last nuclear weapon used in war by the U.S. was the bomb that leveled Nagasaki in 1945.
The U.S. has used depleted uranium shells, but these are not nuclear weapons. Uranium is a nasty poisonous metal and is very bad for one's health. U238 is pretty stable and gives off very little radioactive emission, but is is poisonous. The half life of U238 is about 4.5 billion years so it decays very slowly. However if it is bombarded by neutrons it will produce plutonium which is very radioactive and poisonous.
Bob Kolker
The U.S. has used depleted uranium shells, but these are not nuclear weapons. Uranium is a nasty poisonous metal and is very bad for one's health. U238 is pretty stable and gives off very little radioactive emission, but is is poisonous. The half life of U238 is about 4.5 billion years so it decays very slowly. However if it is bombarded by neutrons it will produce plutonium which is very radioactive and poisonous.
Bob Kolker
You have apparently not followed the discussion about ingested and inhaled uranium dust which emits alpha radiation which is dangerous inside a living body.
I suggest using the most alarming language possible because it is justified considering what is going on.
What we have is a very alarming situation in a different way. We have here a "silver bullet" that gives certain Western armies a qualitative advantage on the battlefield. There is no similar substance that will do what this nuclear waste does, much as it's difficult to replicate an atomic explosion using conventional explosives. As such, Western armies MUST use this nuclear waste or else they suffer on the battlefield, and this is a no-no. This situation contrasts to that of Agent Orange, where they poisoned people with dioxin. This defoliant was, firstly, not of primary battlefield importance unlike bullets, missiles and shells, and secondly, they could always try to brew a not so dangerous defoliant. With this nuclear waste there is no alternative. So, governments have decided this and will keep using it despite its incredible danger. How do they justify it? They use weasel words and they refuse to talk about it as much as possible. It's a real black hole when it comes to this story out there. A major crime is being committed and there's so much silence and denial out there about it... because advantages on the battlefield are paramount and Western armies are not going to willingly give up this particular advantage. There is a real blackout over this.
This is one reason I was so much opposed to the attack on Yugoslavia in 1999. Many people who claimed to be liberals and leftists and humanitarians said that this war was justified. I wonder how it benefits anyone in Kosovo or anywhere else to have nuclear waste dumped all over their land. I also was aware of the horrible damage done to life-sustaining infrastructure in Iraq in 1991 and that this was a ghastly thing to do to Yugoslavia, but this is yet another story that was blacked out. Instead, we are told about easy wars with no cost to us and these will deliver "justice" - we are not told that this includes sickness and death caused by nuclear waste.
I did some calculations using the formula Activity per gram (in decays/second) = [6.0221x10^23 / Atomic Mass] x [Natural Log 2 / Half-Life (in seconds)] and referenced to Wikipedia for info on Uranium and Radon (to find something to compare it with.)
Basically, inhaling one milligram of Uranium-238 will approximately double your lung's radiation dose that it gets from the natural Radon gas that is floating around outside in the open air, and is about 1/20th to 1/40th the amount that if it were radon, they'd recommend you install ventilation to remove from your basement. So getting 20-40 mg U-238 trapped into your lungs would be about the same as staying in a stuffy radon-trapping basement for the rest of your life. Not sure what to compare it to for if it's ingested though.
To better visualize this amount, "low dose" aspirin tablets are 75 milligrams, and as its less dense than uranium, the volume would be much smaller.
I can easily see even with its very long half-life, the radioactivity aspect of it could cause some health problems, especially to those on the battlefields or in the immediate aftermath, but anywhere the dust ends up where it can be inhaled or ingested is pretty bad. Still, I think its chemical toxicity is probably the worst of it and will have the most immediate effects.
You have apparently not followed the discussion about ingested and inhaled uranium dust which emits alpha radiation which is dangerous inside a living body.
Nevertheless, depleted uranium artillery is not a nuclear weapon. There is no mammoth release of energy through fission.
Nuclear weapons are A-bombs of various yields or hydrogen bombs of various yields.
Any weapon not energized by a chain reaction is NOT a nuclear weapon.
Bob Kolker
If nuclear waste was dumped on a major city, right, there would not be nuclear fission either. But they'd still use the word "nuclear". This serves in part to dissuade people from doing such things, this would become a scandal, this would be considered to be a crime. So, when the militaires decide that they have no choice but to use nuclear waste in the "great wars for civilisation", and these wars, we are told, are of course essential to everything, they refuse to call it what it is and try to cover it up as much as possible so that they can keep committing these crimes.
By the way, according to our rulers, anthrax is a "weapon of mass destruction". This of course is a lie, except perhaps for powdered anthrax that Iraq never had. This powdered anthrax was used by the 2001 anthrax killer. Yesterday, the Americans said that the investigation into these "weapons of mass destruction" attacks would be stopped. If they described it as such then there'd be an outcry but since then they've stopped talking about it and it has been long-forgotten - it was just part of the post-911 hysteria.
This suggests that the people behind the anthrax attacks were protected by the government. Philip Zack, most likely suspect, was never, ever put under any scrutiny officially or by media. That he was a pro-Israeli zealot may have something to do with it. It doesn't fit in with the conventional narrative to say "WMD attack was for Israel".
