The false attack on the RC church
15 Apr 2010, 5:27 pm
I think there is a misprison in the title of this thread.
If the Church is greater than its leadership, then the attack is not one directed against the Church, but rather against the perpetrators of crime, and those leaders who abetted either the crimes or impeded investigation.
On the other hand, if the autocratic, hierarchical nature of the Church means that an attack on the Pope's record when he was Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is an attack on the Church entire, then so be it.
Some (by no means all) bishops and senior figures knowingly transferred offending priests to safer or more obscure posts. Senior leaders in the Church continue to attempt to link pedophilia with homosexuality, while attempting to insulate celibacy. The Church cannot avoid a reckoning on these issues, and the longer it attempts to do so, the angrier the survivors of abuse will become, and the less tolerant of Church immunity governments will be.
_________________
--James
15 Apr 2010, 5:55 pm
I_like_autumn wrote:
The massive attack on the RC church these days reminds of the Nazi-strategy: blaming an entire religion and group of people for the mistakes some of them made.
whut u must be off ur nut, the catholic church have even in their defense been coming out with some age old prejusdices of theirs. comparing their own discomfort at the truth about pedofilia being revealed to the holocaust!
they've also know tried to reinforce the stereotype that being gay is somehow liknked to pedofilia, the rc have lost credibility and everyone knows it and they've managed to look worst whilst apologising. no small feat!
15 Apr 2010, 6:22 pm
Topcat16 wrote:
I_like_autumn wrote:
The massive attack on the RC church these days reminds of the Nazi-strategy: blaming an entire religion and group of people for the mistakes some of them made.
whut u must be off ur nut, the catholic church have even in their defense been coming out with some age old prejusdices of theirs. comparing their own discomfort at the truth about pedofilia being revealed to the holocaust!
they've also know tried to reinforce the stereotype that being gay is somehow liknked to pedofilia, the rc have lost credibility and everyone knows it and they've managed to look worst whilst apologising. no small feat!
and who would know more about both subjects than pope adolph ratzinger
16 Apr 2010, 8:11 am
shukri wrote:
I_like_autumn wrote:
The massive attack on the RC church these days reminds of the Nazi-strategy: blaming an entire religion and group of people for the mistakes some of them made.
Sorry, that is absurd. You're comparing the attempted extermination of the Jewish race with some people bad-mouthing the church in the press??? Are you being paid to write this utterly offensive crap?
Actually its a fair comparison up to a point..there was a time preceding the actual holocaust when anti-semitic tactics were mostly conducted by the power of the press and the written word...propaganda is a powerful weapon. The history of the the holocaust does not start with gas-chambers and generally religious persecution never starts at the genocide part.. genocide being the eventual outcome of changing public opinion for the worse.
Interesting side-point: at least one Catholic priest (a bishop perhaps) by the name of Hudal spent a fair amount of time trying to railroad National Socialism away from anti-semitism into anti-judaism, and thus allying the Catholic church and the Nazis into one great beast. He sought out parallels between the two systems. After all, what is "the fuhrer always being right" but papal infallibility in secular form?
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
16 Apr 2010, 9:25 am
Macbeth wrote:
Actually its a fair comparison up to a point..there was a time preceding the actual holocaust when anti-semitic tactics were mostly conducted by the power of the press and the written word...propaganda is a powerful weapon. The history of the the holocaust does not start with gas-chambers and generally religious persecution never starts at the genocide part.. genocide being the eventual outcome of changing public opinion for the worse.
Then the holocaust started 1000 years ago, because thats how long Europeans have been claiming that Jews were poisoning wells and what not.
The difference between casting aspirations against Jews and Catholic priests is that the slander against the Jews had no basis in fact. Priests really have and do sexually abuse children, and it looks like they are still covering it up in places like Wisconsin.
_________________
davidred wrote...
I installed Ubuntu once and it completely destroyed my paying relationship with Microsoft.
16 Apr 2010, 12:33 pm
Fuzzy wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Actually its a fair comparison up to a point..there was a time preceding the actual holocaust when anti-semitic tactics were mostly conducted by the power of the press and the written word...propaganda is a powerful weapon. The history of the the holocaust does not start with gas-chambers and generally religious persecution never starts at the genocide part.. genocide being the eventual outcome of changing public opinion for the worse.
Then the holocaust started 1000 years ago, because thats how long Europeans have been claiming that Jews were poisoning wells and what not.
The difference between casting aspirations against Jews and Catholic priests is that the slander against the Jews had no basis in fact. Priests really have and do sexually abuse children, and it looks like they are still covering it up in places like Wisconsin.
Lets be fair. it is entirely likely that there were and are jews who ARE hell-bent on world domination, up to their necks in dodgy financial dealings, and abuse children (insert your own nazi "slander" here.) in much the same way as humanity as a whole contains such individuals. there have been jewish murderers, rapists, you name it. to suggest that the whole race is made up of rapists and murderers is cretinous. This (it appears) is the basis of the original argument.. that EVERY member of the priesthood is tarred with the same pedo-brush, even though the vast majority are no such thing. Its no excuse for genocide and its no excuse for the vilification of Catholics either. Nevertheless, the parallels remain between a concerted campaign in the media to slander a given group (Catholics in this case) and the concerted effort by the nazis and other right-wing groups to use published media (books and newspapers etc) to build up ill-will against another given group. (Jews in that case) yes, slandering jews has been a popular euro-pastime for a long time, but it would be better to not make slandering Catholics the new hobby of the day either. By all means prosecute those involved, censure those who covered it up, but dont just assume that they all knew about it and were "in on it".
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
16 Apr 2010, 12:40 pm
Macbeth wrote:
Fuzzy wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Actually its a fair comparison up to a point..there was a time preceding the actual holocaust when anti-semitic tactics were mostly conducted by the power of the press and the written word...propaganda is a powerful weapon. The history of the the holocaust does not start with gas-chambers and generally religious persecution never starts at the genocide part.. genocide being the eventual outcome of changing public opinion for the worse.
Then the holocaust started 1000 years ago, because thats how long Europeans have been claiming that Jews were poisoning wells and what not.
The difference between casting aspirations against Jews and Catholic priests is that the slander against the Jews had no basis in fact. Priests really have and do sexually abuse children, and it looks like they are still covering it up in places like Wisconsin.
Lets be fair. it is entirely likely that there were and are jews who ARE hell-bent on world domination, up to their necks in dodgy financial dealings, and abuse children (insert your own nazi "slander" here.) in much the same way as humanity as a whole contains such individuals. there have been jewish murderers, rapists, you name it. to suggest that the whole race is made up of rapists and murderers is cretinous. This (it appears) is the basis of the original argument.. that EVERY member of the priesthood is tarred with the same pedo-brush, even though the vast majority are no such thing. Its no excuse for genocide and its no excuse for the vilification of Catholics either. Nevertheless, the parallels remain between a concerted campaign in the media to slander a given group (Catholics in this case) and the concerted effort by the nazis and other right-wing groups to use published media (books and newspapers etc) to build up ill-will against another given group. (Jews in that case) yes, slandering jews has been a popular euro-pastime for a long time, but it would be better to not make slandering Catholics the new hobby of the day either. By all means prosecute those involved, censure those who covered it up, but dont just assume that they all knew about it and were "in on it".
To be able to be blind to the consistent Catholic policies for centuries that culminated in the Holocaust is a human failing that is inexcusable under any circumstances.
16 Apr 2010, 12:40 pm
Macbeth wrote:
Lets be fair. it is entirely likely that there were and are jews who ARE hell-bent on world domination, up to their necks in dodgy financial dealings, and abuse children (insert your own nazi "slander" here.) in much the same way as humanity as a is tarred with the same pedo-brush, even though the vast majority are no such thing.
Lets be fair and note there are many Christians, Muslims and Budhists up to the same tricks. Jewish worship is highly decentralized. Synagogues are independently chartered and established as non profit corporations under the laws of the state where they are. There is no World Wide Center of Jewish authority, no Conclave of the Elders of Zion. In fact getting three Jews to agree on anything is a miracle of the same order as the parting of the Sea of Reeds. If you have ever seen a meeting of the Knesset in Israel you will have a whole new perspective on Chaos Theory.
The fact is the Catholic Church is a centralized world wide authority and its Management is risk aversive. They have incentives for covering their asses which is ironic when you consider what some priests do to some altar boys.
ruveyn
16 Apr 2010, 12:53 pm
ruveyn wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Lets be fair. it is entirely likely that there were and are jews who ARE hell-bent on world domination, up to their necks in dodgy financial dealings, and abuse children (insert your own nazi "slander" here.) in much the same way as humanity as a is tarred with the same pedo-brush, even though the vast majority are no such thing.
Lets be fair and note there are many Christians, Muslims and Budhists up to the same tricks. Jewish worship is highly decentralized. Synagogues are independently chartered and established as non profit corporations under the laws of the state where they are. There is no World Wide Center of Jewish authority, no Conclave of the Elders of Zion. In fact getting three Jews to agree on anything is a miracle of the same order as the parting of the Sea of Reeds. If you have ever seen a meeting of the Knesset in Israel you will have a whole new perspective on Chaos Theory.
The fact is the Catholic Church is a centralized world wide authority and its Management is risk aversive. They have incentives for covering their asses which is ironic when you consider what some priests do to some altar boys.
ruveyn
And still none of that makes all of them guilty of anything.
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
16 Apr 2010, 12:59 pm
Sand wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Fuzzy wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Actually its a fair comparison up to a point..there was a time preceding the actual holocaust when anti-semitic tactics were mostly conducted by the power of the press and the written word...propaganda is a powerful weapon. The history of the the holocaust does not start with gas-chambers and generally religious persecution never starts at the genocide part.. genocide being the eventual outcome of changing public opinion for the worse.
Then the holocaust started 1000 years ago, because thats how long Europeans have been claiming that Jews were poisoning wells and what not.
The difference between casting aspirations against Jews and Catholic priests is that the slander against the Jews had no basis in fact. Priests really have and do sexually abuse children, and it looks like they are still covering it up in places like Wisconsin.
Lets be fair. it is entirely likely that there were and are jews who ARE hell-bent on world domination, up to their necks in dodgy financial dealings, and abuse children (insert your own nazi "slander" here.) in much the same way as humanity as a whole contains such individuals. there have been jewish murderers, rapists, you name it. to suggest that the whole race is made up of rapists and murderers is cretinous. This (it appears) is the basis of the original argument.. that EVERY member of the priesthood is tarred with the same pedo-brush, even though the vast majority are no such thing. Its no excuse for genocide and its no excuse for the vilification of Catholics either. Nevertheless, the parallels remain between a concerted campaign in the media to slander a given group (Catholics in this case) and the concerted effort by the nazis and other right-wing groups to use published media (books and newspapers etc) to build up ill-will against another given group. (Jews in that case) yes, slandering jews has been a popular euro-pastime for a long time, but it would be better to not make slandering Catholics the new hobby of the day either. By all means prosecute those involved, censure those who covered it up, but dont just assume that they all knew about it and were "in on it".
To be able to be blind to the consistent Catholic policies for centuries that culminated in the Holocaust is a human failing that is inexcusable under any circumstances.
Who is blind to it? I referenced Hudal already as a catholic bishop who tried at length to nail National Socialism and Catholicism together into one big anti-judaic machine, as a ready example of that sort of thing. Anti-semitic behaviour on the part of the Catholic church is not particularly relevant to pederasty in catholicism though. Even if every single catholic were convinced at a grassroots level that jews are evil, doesnt mean that they would all start believing that sexual assault on young boys is a good thing.
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
16 Apr 2010, 1:47 pm
Macbeth wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Lets be fair. it is entirely likely that there were and are jews who ARE hell-bent on world domination, up to their necks in dodgy financial dealings, and abuse children (insert your own nazi "slander" here.) in much the same way as humanity as a is tarred with the same pedo-brush, even though the vast majority are no such thing.
Lets be fair and note there are many Christians, Muslims and Budhists up to the same tricks. Jewish worship is highly decentralized. Synagogues are independently chartered and established as non profit corporations under the laws of the state where they are. There is no World Wide Center of Jewish authority, no Conclave of the Elders of Zion. In fact getting three Jews to agree on anything is a miracle of the same order as the parting of the Sea of Reeds. If you have ever seen a meeting of the Knesset in Israel you will have a whole new perspective on Chaos Theory.
The fact is the Catholic Church is a centralized world wide authority and its Management is risk aversive. They have incentives for covering their asses which is ironic when you consider what some priests do to some altar boys.
ruveyn
And still none of that makes all of them guilty of anything.
That is quite right. Now if Joseph Ratzinger, the Panzer Pope would institute a vigorous, publicly visible and transparent effort to purge the Church of the pedephile priests and if he would admit that the Church has for hundreds of years pursued a CYA policy, maybe the public would be inclined to understand, if not forgive. But the Pope is up to the old tricks of not fully admitting the problem and using the old ploy "we are all sinners". In addition to kicking the pedophiles out, completely out and preventing any more from coming in, the Pope should do away with the policy on restricting its priesthood to celibates and widowers. A priest with a normal sex life is less likely to be pestering alter boys with lovely buttocks.
My gripe is not that their are pedophiles in the Catholic ranks (there are pedophiles in just about any group of people); rather it is the policy of denial and the refusal to deal with the problem in a radical manner. That is why people are asking the question: does the phrase "pedophile priest" consist of two words or one word?
The Top Management of the Catholic Church is a corrupt, morally compromised lot. That has to change if the Church is ever to regain its credibility. The Catholic Church is the Enron of Organized Religion.
ruveyn
16 Apr 2010, 1:58 pm
ruveyn wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Lets be fair. it is entirely likely that there were and are jews who ARE hell-bent on world domination, up to their necks in dodgy financial dealings, and abuse children (insert your own nazi "slander" here.) in much the same way as humanity as a is tarred with the same pedo-brush, even though the vast majority are no such thing.
Lets be fair and note there are many Christians, Muslims and Budhists up to the same tricks. Jewish worship is highly decentralized. Synagogues are independently chartered and established as non profit corporations under the laws of the state where they are. There is no World Wide Center of Jewish authority, no Conclave of the Elders of Zion. In fact getting three Jews to agree on anything is a miracle of the same order as the parting of the Sea of Reeds. If you have ever seen a meeting of the Knesset in Israel you will have a whole new perspective on Chaos Theory.
The fact is the Catholic Church is a centralized world wide authority and its Management is risk aversive. They have incentives for covering their asses which is ironic when you consider what some priests do to some altar boys.
ruveyn
And still none of that makes all of them guilty of anything.
That is quite right. Now if Joseph Ratzinger, the Panzer Pope would institute a vigorous, publicly visible and transparent effort to purge the Church of the pedephile priests and if he would admit that the Church has for hundreds of years pursued a CYA policy, maybe the public would be inclined to understand, if not forgive. But the Pope is up to the old tricks of not fully admitting the problem and using the old ploy "we are all sinners". In addition to kicking the pedophiles out, completely out and preventing any more from coming in, the Pope should do away with the policy on restricting its priesthood to celibates and widowers. A priest with a normal sex life is less likely to be pestering alter boys with lovely buttocks.
My gripe is not that their are pedophiles in the Catholic ranks (there are pedophiles in just about any group of people); rather it is the policy of denial and the refusal to deal with the problem in a radical manner. That is why people are asking the question: does the phrase "pedophile priest" consist of two words or one word?
The Top Management of the Catholic Church is a corrupt, morally compromised lot. That has to change if the Church is ever to regain its credibility. The Catholic Church is the Enron of Organized Religion.
ruveyn
Aah, as if pedophilia were the Catholic Church's only failing.
16 Apr 2010, 3:23 pm
ruveyn wrote:
My gripe is not that their are pedophiles in the Catholic ranks (there are pedophiles in just about any group of people); rather it is the policy of denial and the refusal to deal with the problem in a radical manner. That is why people are asking the question: does the phrase "pedophile priest" consist of two words or one word?
The Top Management of the Catholic Church is a corrupt, morally compromised lot. That has to change if the Church is ever to regain its credibility. The Catholic Church is the Enron of Organized Religion.
ruveyn
The Top Management of the Catholic Church is a corrupt, morally compromised lot. That has to change if the Church is ever to regain its credibility. The Catholic Church is the Enron of Organized Religion.
ruveyn
What he said.
_________________
--James
16 Apr 2010, 5:35 pm
Sand wrote:
Aah, as if pedophilia were the Catholic Church's only failing.
That was my very point. Pedophiles can be found in any group. My beef with the Church is the lack of candor, the refusal to acknowledge corruption, the general CYA approach and denial. This is what is going to destroy the Church, not a bunch of altar boys with sore tooshies.
ruveyn
16 Apr 2010, 6:48 pm
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
Aah, as if pedophilia were the Catholic Church's only failing.
That was my very point. Pedophiles can be found in any group. My beef with the Church is the lack of candor, the refusal to acknowledge corruption, the general CYA approach and denial. This is what is going to destroy the Church, not a bunch of altar boys with sore tooshies.
ruveyn
What do you mean by refusal to acknowledge corruption?
16 Apr 2010, 7:00 pm
Bataar wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
Aah, as if pedophilia were the Catholic Church's only failing.
That was my very point. Pedophiles can be found in any group. My beef with the Church is the lack of candor, the refusal to acknowledge corruption, the general CYA approach and denial. This is what is going to destroy the Church, not a bunch of altar boys with sore tooshies.
ruveyn
What do you mean by refusal to acknowledge corruption?
The names of the bishops that protected and transferred pedophile priests from parish to parish were never revealed publicly. The names of the priests accused of sexual indecency with youngsters were never published by the Church. They were revealed by persons not in the Church. It was only when the heat got turned up very high that overt publicized actions were taken. See no evil, hear no evil, punish no evil. On top of it the Panzer Pope has urged us all to repent. His answer to the specific charges of cover-up is "We are all sinners in the sight of God". Some answer.
ruveyn
