Did the Flood Really Happen?
The flood happened after the Tower of Babel and the only people who survived are Noah and his family.
When did that happen? 4000 years ago? 3000 years ago?
So how come we have black people and white people and eskimos and Australian aborigines and Chinese?
How come there are thousands of languages with no words in common?
So Noah's family spread out from the Middle East, changed size and color and totally changed their language in only 3000 years?
Yeah, right.
I've read that at the time of Christ the world had about 140 million people; and that about 2,000 years later (in 1999) the United Nations had the world's population at 6 billion. I think that these numbers confirm that today's population curve started about 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, which I believe is one of the things that adds weight to the reality of the global flood. (I've also read that if man had been on the earth for 1 million years, the world's population's today would be 1 trillion 500 billion people.)
Your numbers assume no changes in average lifespan, no significant predation in early history/prehistory, and modern levels of medical care extending back quite a long time. (Incidentally, one million years ago takes us to Homo habilis - an ancestor of modern humanity, but much smaller, with a braincase more comparable to their ape cousins, and resembling us only in the fact that they apparently walked erect. The oldest appearance of H. sapiens sapiens dates back to about 40-50 thousand years ago. So, as we can see, your last figure is based on yet another faulty assumption.)
_________________
Sodium is a metal that reacts explosively when exposed to water. Chlorine is a gas that'll kill you dead in moments. Together they make my fries taste good.
Until fairly recently death rates from starvation and disease were very high. Also there was a near extinction event about 75,000 ybp, the eruption of the super volcano Toba that nearly wiped out the human race. So the human race started from a population of a few thousand about that time to the present and most of the time the death rate has been rather high.
ruveyn
Until fairly recently death rates from starvation and disease were very high. Also there was a near extinction event about 75,000 ybp, the eruption of the super volcano Toba that nearly wiped out the human race. So the human race started from a population of a few thousand about that time to the present and most of the time the death rate has been rather high.
ruveyn
According to the paleo-anthropological evidence, there was historically two sub-species of Homo Sapiens i.e. Homo Sapiens Idultu and Homo Sapiens Sapiens. The sub-species Homo Sapiens Idultu were the original form of Homo Sapiens or modern man until the near extinction event you've mentioned above which left only a thousand of them left. At this time dramatic and rapid genetic mutations, caused by this extreme genetic bottle neck, resulted in the new sub-species Homo Sapiens Sapiens which are the humans as we know them today. So yes, you are correct that todays human race started from only a thousand people.
I also need to point out that JetLag's reasoning that leads to the conclusion that todays population curve started 5000 years ago is flawed. Using those numbers, I think that relies on the human population growth being linear. However, it is not linear but exponential. Population growth in the past was slower than it is today and thus todays population curve could of started tens of thousands of years earlier. The fact that the death was also higher in the past is also another factor in the equation.
iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius
Where have all the people gone?
by Silvio Famularo
As a child, I was raised to believe that Adam and Eve were the first two people created and I had no problem believing it. But later people said we evolved from apes and I started to have problems.
A big question arose in my mind, ‘How many millions of years ago could humans have supposedly begun evolving from apes?’
I worked out how many times the world’s population had doubled since the first man and woman. Allowing for past diseases, famines, pestilence, wars and infant mortality, the population would probably have doubled at about the rate of once every couple of hundred years, allowing for it to be much slower than the sixty to seventy years it took to double last time. Multiplying the number of times that the population doubled by a couple of hundred years should give a rough idea, give or take a few thousand years, of when the first two humans were either created or evolved.
Believe it or not, the world’s population has doubled only 31½ times since the first human couple appeared on earth. This gives 6,500 years. You can work it out for yourself on your own calculator.
A lecturer on evolution once told me that there were never just two people because a whole population would have evolved. If that were so, then that would mean that the human population has doubled far less than 31½ times. But, to maximize believability of the evolutionary scenario, let’s say that the population started with only four people a million years ago. This would mean that the average time that the world’s population took to double was about 33,000 years (30.5 doublings). So it would have taken that many years to get to eight people, and another 33,000 years before the world’s population rose to 16. That is rather slow growth—by comparison, a Maori lady died in New Zealand in December 1984 at the age of 112, leaving 450 descendants.
Population growth is increasing currently at a rate of approximately 1.8% per annum (World Book Encyclopaedia), or doubling every 39 years.
Even if the average time that the population doubled in the past was as slow as once every thousand years (that is one twenty-fifth of the present growth rate), this would put the first pair of humans on Earth only 31,500 years ago.
Some people, not willing to believe that mankind was created only a few thousand years ago, claim that the world’s population has been almost wiped out many times. Clearly it has never been wiped out entirely. While some people will assert that the human population has been almost wiped out a number of times, without their providing any evidence to back it up, these same people get very agitated if we suggest that the population was nearly wiped out once by a great Flood in the time of Noah.
The world’s population was approximately 600 million in the year 1650 and increased to about 2,400 million by 1950. This means that it would have doubled twice in 300 years, at an average rate of once every 150 years.
Thanks to the Bible, we can trace the lineages of Jews and Arabs right back to the same patriarch, Abraham, who was born about 2167 BC and had six sons. His first son, Ishmael, was the father of the Arabs, and his second son, Isaac, was the father of Jacob, later called Israel, from whose twelve sons came the 12 tribes of Israel, better known as the Jews.
The World Book of Knowledge says that there are approximately 200 million Arabs in the world and about 18 million Jews.
This means that since Abraham’s time, his descendants through only two sons have doubled roughly 28 times at an average rate of about once every 150 years.
Now the Jewish people have undergone a tremendous amount of persecution and slaughter over the centuries. Hitler murdered over six million in concentration camps alone during the Second World War.
They must have lost many members through disease, infant mortality and starvation over the centuries just as other people groups have. Their history is replete with stories of battles and loss of life because of wars. Yet we find that their numbers have doubled a minimum of 23 times, at an average rate of once every 182 years.
We can calculate the rate of population growth starting from about 4,500 years ago, when, from the historical details found in the Bible, Noah and his family—eight in total—survived the deluge. That population has to double 29½ times to get the current world’s population of six and a half billion, at an average doubling rate of once every 152 years. Interesting, isn’t it? The Bible’s timeframe of history fits the data.
No, the human population doesn't increase by doubling a certain number of fixed generations.
[img][800:600]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/World_population_growth_%28lin-log_scale%29.png[/img]
The above graph is plotted on logarithmic scale. So, if human population increased at a fixed exponential rate, such as doubling after a fixed number of generations, the above graph would be linear. One of the things that factor into this is that in the past, the death rate was higher than it is today.
If this is all a matter of doubling, then how come all of the faster breeding creatures haven't just doubled more quickly and taken over? It seems to me that you either have to apply the same population growth patterns to EVERYTHING ELSE, or you have to admit that the population growth pattern issue can diverge from the simple exponential model, and possibly even did for human-kind. This is even without having to use an idea of "being nearly wiped out", given that this is all that Mr. Famularo can think of as an objection.
Frankly, I see creationism as extravagantly foolish. Creationists are really proof of evolution if you think about it: no creature put on this earth by a deity would be so foolish or wasteful towards their own time and effort, only a mindless and ateleological process would even be so creative as to result in something so absurd and unfunny at the same time.
Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 25 Jun 2010, 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
by Silvio Famularo
Biography
Silvio is a God-loving New Zealander born of Italian parents. He is a semi-professional operatic tenor, actor, comedian and orator. Silvio is passionate about exposing the false theories of evolution and spreading the gospel to the unsaved.
It doesn't say he is a biologist, is that is so, he isn't even qualified to even try to "expose" evolution, and he doesn't seem to even try to come up from a scientific framework rather religious ad hocness.
Why evolution "must be false"? Because it contradicts creationists' theology, period.
_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?
Just in case this hasn't already been posted. Its a video taken by Chinese explorers who discovered the ark on top of Mount Ararat in Turkey. They found an ancient wooden structure under the snow and ice that was carbon dated to Noah's time.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpeQU7GIZc[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpeQU7GIZc[/youtube]
So what? What indicates it was a floating vessel? And were traces of the feces and urine of hundreds of mammalian species found imbedded in the wood?
ruveyn
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpeQU7GIZc[/youtube]
And it is likely a hoax.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-I ... -in-Turkey
http://www.examiner.com/x-17009-Freetho ... s-Ark-Hoax
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/30 ... believers/
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=146941
For one, a lot of "discoveries" of Noah's ark occur.
Secondly, experts have attacked this many times.
Thirdly, some actually think that this was a prank played on the researchers.
And finally, the Bible disagrees with too many things to even take it seriously, and a worldwide flood disagrees with too many other scientists to take it seriously.
Prevailing amongst whom, exactly? As I said, one million years back lands us in the heyday of H. habilis, not H. sapiens. If we get to just make up figures to suit ourselves, and claim they're "now-prevailing", I can easily "prove" that all modern humans descended from the Numenoreans who survived the War of the Ring and the opening of the Fourth Age.
_________________
Sodium is a metal that reacts explosively when exposed to water. Chlorine is a gas that'll kill you dead in moments. Together they make my fries taste good.
A biblical deluge, probably not. Climatic change, defiantly so. Green house gases or not, the earth has seen some very very wild times in it's millions years history, from ice ages that cut up Alberta's land scape (giant boulders in the middle of no where), to depositing huge lakes in the Rockies.
Iraq was actually very fertile, and the tundra of North America north was a forest.
Saltzberg is home to a salt deposit, from a video the showed tourists, it was deposited by the sea. Alexandria was hit by an earthquake and sank under the sea.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4257181.stm ( a city in India was uncovered by the Tsunami of 2005).
millions of years from now, the world would still look different, all our suburbs and our giant cities would be plowed over by a glacier. Or Canadian ones anyways.
Nature always wins.
by Silvio Famularo
Believe it or not, the world’s population has doubled only 31½ times since the first human couple appeared on earth. This gives 6,500 years. You can work it out for yourself on your own calculator.
This time, the problem with your source isn't that the person is ignorant of biology. It's that he sucks at math.
Take a differential equations course and play with some population dynamics models. This naïve "doubling" approach to population dynamics would have been considered crude even in Malthus's time.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
