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Does multiculturalism defeat the purpose of countries?

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John_Browning
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12 Aug 2010, 4:43 pm

jc6chan wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Are you going to throw personal accusations at me or debate my argument? I said it's fine for other cultures to come here (even the ones that are backwards and don't benefit society) as long as they obey the law and don't act detrimental to society.
jc6chan wrote:
If muslims become the majority, then it would make sense that they would have more say in the govenment of a democratic country. I would say that it would be fair to implement some Islamic values if the people wants to. However, any law that gets passed must meet the human rights standards of the constitution. So no, religious persecution would not be allowed/tolerated. Stoning of women and chopping off of hands would not be allowed either. But other things like criminalization of porn and restrictions/control of alcohol consumption I don't care.

Here, we are a constitutional republic and not a pure democracy. Any laws passed must meet certain standards to be legal and enforceable. If Muslims became a political force, any laws they passed would still have to be constitutional.

Were you saying that criminalisation of porn or control of alcohol consumption is unconstitutional?

Most porn is protected, and the re-legalization of alcohol is in the constitution and can only be banned or restricted at a local level which isn't effective.

Keeping the government out of people's lives is more important than legislating morality right now anyway.


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12 Aug 2010, 5:04 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Keeping the government out of people's lives is more important than legislating morality right now anyway.

Good luck with that, you'll need it.


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John_Browning
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12 Aug 2010, 5:46 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Keeping the government out of people's lives is more important than legislating morality right now anyway.

Good luck with that, you'll need it.

I know.


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jc6chan
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12 Aug 2010, 8:44 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Keeping the government out of people's lives is more important than legislating morality right now anyway.

It depends on how conservative you are.



jc6chan
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12 Aug 2010, 8:48 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Most porn is protected

Most porn are online nowadays. I wouldn't say they are protected. Most websites don't even ask if you are over 18. Even if they ask, there is no way to verify it. Anyone can lie and just click "yes, I'm over 18." If porn needs to be regulated, there has to be a system where you will need an ID number, and from that ID number, the website can check info like your date of birth.



John_Browning
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12 Aug 2010, 8:54 pm

jc6chan wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Most porn is protected

Most porn are online nowadays. I wouldn't say they are protected. Most websites don't even ask if you are over 18. Even if they ask, there is no way to verify it. Anyone can lie and just click "yes, I'm over 18." If porn needs to be regulated, there has to be a system where you will need an ID number, and from that ID number, the website can check info like your date of birth.

Porn sites are the shady underbelly of the internet and are often filled with viruses and spyware, and are run by shady people. I would not want porn sites to have access to a database with any personal information. That creates a high risk of identity theft and can also be used for extremely Orwellian purposes. It would be the lesser evil to leave porn sites alone.


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12 Aug 2010, 8:57 pm

jc6chan wrote:
Most porn are online nowadays. I wouldn't say they are protected. Most websites don't even ask if you are over 18. Even if they ask, there is no way to verify it. Anyone can lie and just click "yes, I'm over 18." If porn needs to be regulated, there has to be a system where you will need an ID number, and from that ID number, the website can check info like your date of birth.


Good luck trying to enforce something like that, especially with an international medium like the internet in play. All it would do is take porn out of the hands of a (fairly) legitimate industry and make it into the domain of criminal syndicates with access to over seas servers and/or outright data-havens like Sealand. Over-regulating or banning a product for which there is significant demand invariably leads to problems, alcohol prohibition in the US being the greatest example of such, shady money from back then is still fueling corruption to this day.


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jc6chan
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12 Aug 2010, 10:25 pm

John_Browning wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Most porn is protected

Most porn are online nowadays. I wouldn't say they are protected. Most websites don't even ask if you are over 18. Even if they ask, there is no way to verify it. Anyone can lie and just click "yes, I'm over 18." If porn needs to be regulated, there has to be a system where you will need an ID number, and from that ID number, the website can check info like your date of birth.

Porn sites are the shady underbelly of the internet and are often filled with viruses and spyware, and are run by shady people. I would not want porn sites to have access to a database with any personal information. That creates a high risk of identity theft and can also be used for extremely Orwellian purposes. It would be the lesser evil to leave porn sites alone.

I'm guessing if you're a parent you wouldn't want your kid to have an account on this website right?
http://yoursphere.com/what-we-re-about
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We verify identities, require parental consent, perform a predator check, and use both technology and human oversight to monitor site activity.



John_Browning
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12 Aug 2010, 11:21 pm

jc6chan wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
jc6chan wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Most porn is protected

Most porn are online nowadays. I wouldn't say they are protected. Most websites don't even ask if you are over 18. Even if they ask, there is no way to verify it. Anyone can lie and just click "yes, I'm over 18." If porn needs to be regulated, there has to be a system where you will need an ID number, and from that ID number, the website can check info like your date of birth.

Porn sites are the shady underbelly of the internet and are often filled with viruses and spyware, and are run by shady people. I would not want porn sites to have access to a database with any personal information. That creates a high risk of identity theft and can also be used for extremely Orwellian purposes. It would be the lesser evil to leave porn sites alone.

I'm guessing if you're a parent you wouldn't want your kid to have an account on this website right?
http://yoursphere.com/what-we-re-about
Quote:
We verify identities, require parental consent, perform a predator check, and use both technology and human oversight to monitor site activity.

You are comparing shady, malware-ridden porn sites to reputable, well organized sites. Even I have shared credit card and other personal information with reputable sites that I would be freaked out if I ever learned porn sites got ahold of. Mixing reputable sites into a debate on porn sites creates a red herring argument.


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12 Aug 2010, 11:28 pm

FerrariMike_40 wrote:
the whole "human rights" thing is a politically correct fraud that violates self determination and therefore sovereignty.
QFT


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13 Aug 2010, 12:29 am

The multicultists are going to get their wish... and then they'll be sorry.

Within fifty years the national group of every country in Europe will be a minority in their own lands.
In America, Canada and Australia the same thing is happening.

But of course diverse people can live happily together. Look at Israel. The Jews and Muslims are bestest buddies, right? No?
Well in Sri Lanka the Tamils and the Sri Lancans are great friends?
The Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland?
The Basques and the other Spaniards?

In Belgium the French speakers and Dutch speakers avoid each other as much as they can.
Ditto the French and English speaking Canadians.

In Africa think of the "friendly rivalry" between the Hootoos and the Tootsies and the great fun they are having in Sudan.

Japan is also having trouble with an aging population and a declining birth rate but you don't hear the Japanese say : "You know, what we need to do is bring in 20 million illiterate Africans who not only can't speak Japanese but who have never worn shoes and never seen a flush toilet. Yeah that will fix our labor problem."

Which shows that the Japanese are much smarter than we are.



ruveyn
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13 Aug 2010, 2:05 am

Wombat wrote:
The multicultists are going to get their wish... and then they'll be sorry.

Within fifty years the national group of every country in Europe will be a minority in their own lands.
In America, Canada and Australia the same thing is happening.

But of course diverse people can live happily together. Look at Israel. The Jews and Muslims are bestest buddies, right? No?
Well in Sri Lanka the Tamils and the Sri Lancans are great friends?
The Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland?
The Basques and the other Spaniards?

In Belgium the French speakers and Dutch speakers avoid each other as much as they can.
Ditto the French and English speaking Canadians.

In Africa think of the "friendly rivalry" between the Hootoos and the Tootsies and the great fun they are having in Sudan.

Japan is also having trouble with an aging population and a declining birth rate but you don't hear the Japanese say : "You know, what we need to do is bring in 20 million illiterate Africans who not only can't speak Japanese but who have never worn shoes and never seen a flush toilet. Yeah that will fix our labor problem."

Which shows that the Japanese are much smarter than we are.


American and Irish labor can be imported.

ruveyn



visagrunt
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13 Aug 2010, 2:35 am

Mudboy wrote:
FerrariMike_40 wrote:
the whole "human rights" thing is a politically correct fraud that violates self determination and therefore sovereignty.
QFT


Learn to distinguish between human rights and civil liberties before you become too much of a cheerleader.


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jc6chan
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13 Aug 2010, 8:08 am

Wombat wrote:
The multicultists are going to get their wish... and then they'll be sorry.

Within fifty years the national group of every country in Europe will be a minority in their own lands.
In America, Canada and Australia the same thing is happening.

But of course diverse people can live happily together. Look at Israel. The Jews and Muslims are bestest buddies, right? No?
Well in Sri Lanka the Tamils and the Sri Lancans are great friends?
The Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland?
The Basques and the other Spaniards?

In Belgium the French speakers and Dutch speakers avoid each other as much as they can.
Ditto the French and English speaking Canadians.

In Africa think of the "friendly rivalry" between the Hootoos and the Tootsies and the great fun they are having in Sudan.

Japan is also having trouble with an aging population and a declining birth rate but you don't hear the Japanese say : "You know, what we need to do is bring in 20 million illiterate Africans who not only can't speak Japanese but who have never worn shoes and never seen a flush toilet. Yeah that will fix our labor problem."

Which shows that the Japanese are much smarter than we are.

I have a feeling things are gonna be fine in Canada. Europe? I don't know about that. Controversial laws are already getting passed that fuel tension. Banning of minarettes (excuse my bad spelling just in case) on mosques in Switzerland, banning of the full veil in France, banning of hijab in public schools in France, etc, etc...



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13 Aug 2010, 11:59 am

visagrunt wrote:
Mudboy wrote:
FerrariMike_40 wrote:
the whole "human rights" thing is a politically correct fraud that violates self determination and therefore sovereignty.
QFT


Learn to distinguish between human rights and civil liberties before you become too much of a cheerleader.


Maybe both are overrated and don't apply to non Western countries? Maybe not every country in the world can be like America and Canada and be so up their own ass in political correctness? Take Putin's Russia for example.

Putin has done such wonders for Russia. He stabilized the Federation, got them into the 21st century and out of the Soviet era, and overseen a tiger economy. All of these advancements for Russia were being done while telling the UN and Western human rights groups to go away. If Putin didn't violate some "human rights", like the counter terrorist efforts in Chechenya and saying no to multiculturalism, Russia wouldn't have made these advancements. Slavic countries will never take in Muslim immigrants and have their national identities lost to multiculturalism and other "human rights", and that's why Eastern Europe is on the rise.

There are several other examples as well.


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13 Aug 2010, 12:38 pm

FerrariMike_40 wrote:
Maybe both are overrated and don't apply to non Western countries? Maybe not every country in the world can be like America and Canada and be so up their own ass in political correctness? Take Putin's Russia for example.

Putin has done such wonders for Russia. He stabilized the Federation, got them into the 21st century and out of the Soviet era, and overseen a tiger economy. All of these advancements for Russia were being done while telling the UN and Western human rights groups to go away. If Putin didn't violate some "human rights", like the counter terrorist efforts in Chechenya and saying no to multiculturalism, Russia wouldn't have made these advancements. Slavic countries will never take in Muslim immigrants and have their national identities lost to multiculturalism and other "human rights", and that's why Eastern Europe is on the rise.

There are several other examples as well.


That seems to me to be an exercise in post hoc ergo propter hoc. I see no causal link between the suppression of a regional populist movement and the overall prosperity of Russia. Counter-terrorism is a valid exercise for any government (Canada went through it with the FLQ and Britain went through it with the IRA), but that is not the same thing as rejecting multiculturalism.

How much more prosperous might Russia be with an autonomous Chechen population with her borders? We'll never know, will we? How much will Russia have to spend to isolate Sochi from Chechen and Georgian incursion during the Olympics? Could that money be better spent than in the construction of reinforced bunkers and the deployment of artillery positions?

Also, you might want to bear in mind that Russians make up less than 80% of the population of Russia. The Constitution allows constituent republics to establish their native languages as co-official, and Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Bhuddism all carry legal recognition as part of Russia's cultural heritage. These sound like pretty multicultural policies to me.

Consider standard of living. The highest ranking city in Russia in Mercer's Quality of Living Survey is Kazan, which is a bicultural city--I don't think that this is an accident.


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