U.S. Libertarianism: Of the Left or of the Right?

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Awesomelyglorious
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26 Sep 2010, 12:06 am

NeantHumain wrote:

marshall wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

In the U.S. both major parties are Statist. They see the government as the main engine in society. They have somewhat different agendas. The Republicans want a welfare state for the corporations and the Democrats want a welfare state for the miserable and stupid incompetents of society.

In either case the government will take its cut, hand out jobs to the cronies and pretty well make it impossible for the productive to produce.

Who exactly are these miserable and stupid incopetents of society? And what exactly are you producing?

The Randian elite shall crush the moocher majority.

Is this with gold bullion?

marshall
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26 Sep 2010, 12:29 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

NeantHumain wrote:

marshall wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Who exactly are these miserable and stupid incopetents of society? And what exactly are you producing?

The Randian elite shall crush the moocher majority.

Is this with gold bullion?

No, with tedious literature that pounds the reader over the head with an ill-conceived notion that says greed and selfishness are the only things that motivate people to be productive.

Awesomelyglorious
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26 Sep 2010, 12:31 am

marshall wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

NeantHumain wrote:

marshall wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Who exactly are these miserable and stupid incopetents of society? And what exactly are you producing?

The Randian elite shall crush the moocher majority.

Is this with gold bullion?

No, with tedious literature that pounds the reader over the head with an ill-conceived notion that says greed and selfishness are the only things that motivate people to be productive.

Eh, that's probably all the Randian elite could afford anyway.

Quartz11
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26 Sep 2010, 2:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:

In the U.S. both major parties are Statist. They see the government as the main engine in society. They have somewhat different agendas. The Republicans want a welfare state for the corporations and the Democrats want a welfare state for the miserable and stupid incompetents of society.

In either case the government will take its cut, hand out jobs to the cronies and pretty well make it impossible for the productive to produce.

ruveyn

Either way, only one percent of the population are exploitative enough to seriously benefit from such crooked politics.

Several other percent would use the services either way, but not truly making a living off playing it.

marshall
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26 Sep 2010, 3:19 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

marshall wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

NeantHumain wrote:

The Randian elite shall crush the moocher majority.

Is this with gold bullion?

No, with tedious literature that pounds the reader over the head with an ill-conceived notion that says greed and selfishness are the only things that motivate people to be productive.

Eh, that's probably all the Randian elite could afford anyway.

That's only because the government is holding them down with taxes and regulations. In an alternate universe without taxes and regulations all worthwhile people would own flying cars and have robot slaves manufactured by the Randian elite.

Quartz11
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26 Sep 2010, 4:42 pm

marshall wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

marshall wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

NeantHumain wrote:

The Randian elite shall crush the moocher majority.

Is this with gold bullion?

No, with tedious literature that pounds the reader over the head with an ill-conceived notion that says greed and selfishness are the only things that motivate people to be productive.

Eh, that's probably all the Randian elite could afford anyway.

If it were up to the Randian elite, the alternate universe would have human slaves.

Hell, we're already on our way...

ruveyn
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26 Sep 2010, 4:53 pm

Quartz11 wrote:

If it were up to the Randian elite, the alternate universe would have human slaves.

Basic Rand Principle: no initiation of force. How does one have slavery without initiating force?

ruveyn

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26 Sep 2010, 4:54 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Quartz11 wrote:

If it were up to the Randian elite, the alternate universe would have human slaves.

Basic Rand Principle: no initiation of force. How does one have slavery without initiating force?

ruveyn

Have a starving man sign a contract selling himself into slavery in exchange for a hot meal.

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ruveyn
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26 Sep 2010, 4:55 pm

Orwell wrote:

Have a starving man sign a contract selling himself into slavery in exchange for a hot meal.

That would be voluntary. No one is obliged to feed anyone except a dependent child.

ruveyn

Awesomelyglorious
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26 Sep 2010, 5:19 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Have a starving man sign a contract selling himself into slavery in exchange for a hot meal.

That would be voluntary. No one is obliged to feed anyone except a dependent child.

ruveyn

It is also an answer to your question.

Quartz11
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26 Sep 2010, 5:21 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Quartz11 wrote:

If it were up to the Randian elite, the alternate universe would have human slaves.

Basic Rand Principle: no initiation of force. How does one have slavery without initiating force?

ruveyn

For a minute there I was thinking Rand Paul and Ayn Rand completely slipped my mind. My bad.

But on my train of thought: the "libertarian" movement of the Tea Party is really being used by corporate powers to loosen business regulations and restrictions. Over time, the people would see increasingly regressive working conditions and increasingly declining wages - to the point we essentially become slaves for corporate masters.

In response to Orwell's comment: someone who is starving and desperate would sign a contract into slavery for a hot meal, but in a way that could be considered involuntary. Yes it is "voluntary" in a sense, but what other options are there besides continued starvation and suffering? Of course there ways to rise up out of the predicament, but few at rock bottom look beyond the immediate problems.

ruveyn
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26 Sep 2010, 5:25 pm

Quartz11 wrote:

In response to Orwell's comment: someone who is starving and desperate would sign a contract into slavery for a hot meal, but in a way that could be considered involuntary. Yes it is "voluntary" in a sense, but what other options are there besides continued starvation and suffering? Of course there ways to rise up out of the predicament, but few at rock bottom look beyond the immediate problems.

Unless one is being starved in an involuntary fashion (i.e. one is prevented by force from obtaining food), going hungry is just tough luck. No one is obliged to feed anyone else but a dependent child. So if a person is starving by misfortune (say his crops failed or his land was flooded out) he can choose do die or he can steal food, or he can sell his birthright for a mess of pottage, like Esau, Jacob's brother.

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26 Sep 2010, 6:24 pm

Quartz11 wrote:

Which is a serious problem with the extreme libertarian stance. It is trivially possible to construct thought expriments in which the absolute freedom of contract and association pushed by libertarians can result in a reduction of liberty.

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26 Sep 2010, 6:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Have a starving man sign a contract selling himself into slavery in exchange for a hot meal.

That would be voluntary. No one is obliged to feed anyone except a dependent child.

ruveyn

Exactly, it would be voluntary. It is a way to have slavery without the initiation of force. Your rhetorical question has been shown to be bull.

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ruveyn
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26 Sep 2010, 6:29 pm

Orwell wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Have a starving man sign a contract selling himself into slavery in exchange for a hot meal.

That would be voluntary. No one is obliged to feed anyone except a dependent child.

ruveyn

Exactly, it would be voluntary. It is a way to have slavery without the initiation of force. Your rhetorical question has been shown to be bull.

If it is voluntary it is not slavery. Slavery is forced labor. It requires the initiation of force.

What you have when a person sells his labor for food is a hard bargain, not slavery. And the contract would not have any legal validity after seven years (in the English speaking world).

ruveyn

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26 Sep 2010, 6:36 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Orwell wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Have a starving man sign a contract selling himself into slavery in exchange for a hot meal.

That would be voluntary. No one is obliged to feed anyone except a dependent child.

ruveyn

Exactly, it would be voluntary. It is a way to have slavery without the initiation of force. Your rhetorical question has been shown to be bull.

The stance of extreme propertarianism among libertarians views everything as personal property, starting with one's own person. One can sell that which one owns. Thus, one can sell oneself into slavery.

I'm not talking about selling one's labor for food, I mean an actual slave contract, whereby one person would be regarded as the private property of another.

Where do you come up with the bizarre notion that the contract would have no legal validity after seven years? Are you basing this on some obsolete notion of indentured servitude? If it is specified in some contract, then the contract can be for an arbitrary term, or even for the remainder of the slave's life.

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FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

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