Ethics av veganism

Page 3 of 6 [ 95 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,817
Location: My World, Highview, Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Earth, The Milky Way, Local Group, Local Supercluster

06 Jan 2011, 4:04 am

Orwell wrote:

As far as archeology can determine, our species has been eating meat for as long as we have existed. We have canine teeth. Our closest living relatives (chimps and bonobos) will eat meat whenever they can get it.

That might be the case for chimps. Bonobos, however, are frugivores.

Orwell wrote:

Our digestive tract is not capable of breaking down cellulose. The idea that we are "natural herbivores" is ludicrous and nothing more than a hippie-vegan myth.

I never commented on our "natural" diet. Merely that we are NOT obligate omnivores. I can already tell this discussion might degenerate into condescension on your part.

Orwell wrote:

A well-balanced omnivorous diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet. It is certainly possible that a carefully-constructed vegan or vegetarian diet could be better than the haphazard omnivorous diet that many Americans (including myself) subsist on. But it is dishonest to claim that it is optimal, and it is not a fair comparison to take the best possible vegetarian diet and compare it against an average (and rather unhealthy) omnivorous diet, rather than against an optimal omnivorous diet.

I asked you to name a single nutrient other than B12 that cannot be obtained through plant sources. You could not. Repeating your assertions ad nauseum does not an argument make.

Orwell wrote:

I have never seen a single strong vegetarian. They are all small, weak, and scrawny because they have not been obtaining the correct nutrients in the correct quantities. It is probably possible to find some way of compensating for this with supplements or a very careful choice of plant-based foods, but by eating a reasonable amount of fish and poultry along with the fruits, vegetables, and grains of a balanced diet you have an easy guarantee of adequate nutrition.

I'm not particularly concerned with your personal anecdotes. If I was, I'd mention the fact that all the meat-eaters I know are overweight or obese. But that's not intellectually honest.

Even if you were a licensed medical practitioner or nutritionist yourself,
that wouldn't negate that the majority of such professionals consider vegetarian diets not only safe but beneficial.

I'll not respond to you again until you stop repeating yourself and start citing some evidence.

I'm not here to engage you in your misconceptions,
but to help the OP.

_________________
For there is another kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions; indifference and inaction and slow decay.

Bethie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,817
Location: My World, Highview, Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Earth, The Milky Way, Local Group, Local Supercluster

06 Jan 2011, 4:17 am

I do have some background in farming practices, LKL,
coming from a community whose primary income was from "free range" eggs and milk as part of a national factory farming corporation with buyers all over the nation,
and the conditions the animals are kept in are every bit as horrific as those who are accused of propoganda-peddling say.

Thank you for the critique of both sides.

Last edited by Bethie on 06 Jan 2011, 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

06 Jan 2011, 4:20 am

LKL wrote:

It is obvious that we evolved as omnivores, but it is just as obvious that we evolved eating vastly less meat than the current 'average' western diet. Meat once a week is plenty; meat at every meal is too much.
In addition, one can cut out event the once-a-week meat with careful management of one's diet, and as has been pointed out earlier, there are both moral and environmental reasons to do so.

The historical trend for our species (from pre-human hominids continuing into our development) has been an increasing dependence on meat in our diet. It is true that most Americans eat more meat than is healthy (I certainly eat a lot more beef than is optimal) but that fact says nothing about whether vegetarianism or veganism is superior to omnivory. Meat only once a week seems a bit light to me; but it might depend on the individual. I would think, for instance, an adolescent male undergoing rapid growth should eat meat much more frequently.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Bethie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,817
Location: My World, Highview, Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Earth, The Milky Way, Local Group, Local Supercluster

06 Jan 2011, 4:24 am

Orwell wrote:

I could (and probably should) cut back a bit, but I don't function very well without meat. I can't remember the last time I went more than a couple days without meat, and I didn't feel good at all going that long.

Since you are under the misconception that the nutrients in meat can't be obtained elsewhere,
I'm guessing when you cut out meat you didn't replace it with foods from different sources.

Master_Pedant
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,903

06 Jan 2011, 4:29 am

Orwell wrote:

(I certainly eat a lot more beef than is optimal)

Have you ever considered substiting towards nice, lean, Manitoba pork? :lol:

Moronic pandering to regional industries aside, have you been tested for various medical conditions that might cause an excess demand of certain foods (like meat or certain proteins)?

_________________
http://www.voterocky.org/

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

06 Jan 2011, 4:30 am

Bethie wrote:

I never commented on our "natural" diet.

Yes you did. You even went so far as to make the absurd claim that we are "obligate herbivores." If that were the case we would not be able to eat meat at all.

Quote:

I asked you to name a single nutrient other than B12 that cannot be obtained through plant sources. You could not. Repeating your assertions ad nauseum does not an argument make.

You can, in principle, get almost everything you need (save the B12) from plants. The question is whether this is actually feasible in practice. A vegetarian diet that includes everything you need on a regular basis is not at all trivial to construct, and anyone who wants to venture down that path should be careful. A diet which includes meat has no difficulties whatsoever in getting the appropriate nutrients (and more than is needed). Overnutrition is bad, but malnutrition is worse.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

06 Jan 2011, 4:35 am

MP: I'm not into pork at all. Never liked the taste. I have not, to my knowledge, been tested for any such medical conditions. But I would not be surprised if one were present, given that my diet is extremely high in saturated fats and cholesterol and yet my blood cholesterol readings are consistently far below the normal range.

Bethie wrote:

Since you are under the misconception that the nutrients in meat can't be obtained elsewhere,
I'm guessing when you cut out meat you didn't replace it with foods from different sources.

Nuts, corn, beans, green vegetables, grains, etc. Hasn't worked out well for me. I'm a meat-eater.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Bethie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,817
Location: My World, Highview, Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Earth, The Milky Way, Local Group, Local Supercluster

06 Jan 2011, 4:45 am

Orwell wrote:

Bethie wrote:

I never commented on our "natural" diet.

Yes you did. You even went so far as to make the absurd claim that we are "obligate herbivores." If that were the case we would not be able to eat meat at all..

It means we must eat plant matter to survive, as opposed to plants and meat. That's all.

Orwell wrote:

Bethie wrote:

I asked you to name a single nutrient other than B12 that cannot be obtained through plant sources. You could not. Repeating your assertions ad nauseum does not an argument make.

Actually, many meat-eaters are malnutritioned given the prevalence of meat and dairy-heavy choices versus fruits and vegetables in the SAD (appropriate acronym for the Standard American Diet). Meat is not some magical fountain of nutrition.

For someone who is used to eating healthfully and mindfully, a vegan diet is not at all difficult to maintain, let alone a vegetarian pne.

Orwell wrote:

Bethie wrote:

Since you are under the misconception that the nutrients in meat can't be obtained elsewhere,
I'm guessing when you cut out meat you didn't replace it with foods from different sources.

Nuts, corn, beans, green vegetables, grains, etc. Hasn't worked out well for me. I'm a meat-eater.

Oh, for the "couple days" you tried it? :lol:

Last edited by Bethie on 06 Jan 2011, 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

06 Jan 2011, 5:01 am

I don't really have a problem with vegans until they turn evangelical. Come to think of it, I think that's my opinion on most personal choices...

_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez

Bethie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,817
Location: My World, Highview, Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Earth, The Milky Way, Local Group, Local Supercluster

06 Jan 2011, 5:12 am

Dox47 wrote:

I don't really have a problem with vegans until they turn evangelical. Come to think of it, I think that's my opinion on most personal choices...

They call themselves "vegangelicals".

Not kidding. :lol:

91
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,063
Location: Australia

06 Jan 2011, 5:13 am

Just a funny non sequitur

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNWB6Vq18xc&feature=related[/youtube]

_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

06 Jan 2011, 5:27 am

Bethie wrote:

Meat is not some magical fountain of nutrition.

Magic, no. But it has a lot of what humans need in an easy-to-process package.

Quote:

vegetarian pne.

PNE?

Quote:

Oh, for the "couple days" you tried it? :lol:

If I immediately notice detrimental consequences, I stop. Without meat, I am always hungry, less energetic, more distracted, etc.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Bethie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,817
Location: My World, Highview, Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Earth, The Milky Way, Local Group, Local Supercluster

06 Jan 2011, 6:11 am

Orwell wrote:

Bethie wrote:

Meat is not some magical fountain of nutrition.

Magic, no. But it has a lot of what humans need in an easy-to-process package.

Quote:

vegetarian pne.

PNE?

Quote:

Oh, for the "couple days" you tried it? :lol:

If I immediately notice detrimental consequences, I stop. Without meat, I am always hungry, less energetic, more distracted, etc.

Ah, so it's convenience that's the question.
Forgive my typo. Thank you for pointing it out. In caps. Most constructive.
Have you ever heard the term "withdrawal"?

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

06 Jan 2011, 7:58 am

naturalplastic wrote:

When I was teen, even before I saw Soylent Green, and before I read Swift's "Modest Proposal" in school, I wondered about - not killing people for food- but about recycling the ones who die anyway- you know- making 'em into Spam for the grocery shelf.

One problem is that only about one percent of the US population dies each year.

So we each would only get about an average of one and half pounds of 'long pig' to add to our diet for a whole year. Not really worth it.

Later I learned that there are other problems- notably health threats.

The Fore tribe of New Guinea are traditional canibals,and for centuries many of the Fore get what they call "kuru" or 'laughing sickness'. This a 100 percent fatal neurological disease.

It is, essentially, the human equivalent of mad cow disease. They got it the same way that American cattle got the disease in the nineties- by eating the brains of members of their own species.

Eating meat can expose you to germs carried by the prey. But when the prey animal is a different species there is very little danger to the predator because its hard for germs to infect more than one kind of host- germs tend to be specialists.
But if you subsist on your OWN species you get dosed by the germs of your OWN species so you're asking to get sick. Indeed even, what I call 'near canibalism' (eating critters related to your species) can be dangerous. There is evidence that AIDS originated in the Afrian green monkey and the most likely way it crossed the species border into humans was because of the African practice of eating 'bush meat' -eating monkeys and apes.

You could counter that " you just need to cook the meat properly- and ofcourse serve it with fava beans and chianti".

But even so- if Soylent Green became a reality- wed probably all turn into mad cows.

Cooking doe not destroy prions which are not alive.

zer0netgain
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Mar 2009
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,613

06 Jan 2011, 9:35 am

The human body needs meat. Not a lot, but it needs it. There are things you get from meat that plants can never provide.

galwacco
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 5 Jan 2011
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 64

06 Jan 2011, 11:13 am

Philologos wrote:

Plants are kiving beings too. Where do you draw the line?.

Come on! You can do better than that! That was a lame excuse for excusing your diet.

I vegan, I was freaked out by the thought of eating a cadaver. That had a huge impact in my phsyque, so I quit eating meat and now I am happy.

People will tell you that if you go vegan you're gonna die of a miserable death.

So did my mother die of a miserable death, for her eating habits. She had rectum cancer, that that's attributed to the excess of meat in one's diet.

If people get sick by going vegan or vegetarian, that's just because they are not paying attention about what they should eat. There is a whole food pyramid to follow, regardless whether you are vegetarian of a meat eater. Everyone has to get food from all the pyramid. If you do that, if you choose wisely what to eat, you are going to be normally healthy, and if you have moral problems about eating meat, you are going to be mentally healthy as well.

That's the trick, just be wise in what you choose to eat. Too much soy is poison, just like too much meat is poison.

Page 3 of 6 [ 95 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Jump to:

Ethics av veganism Post Reply New Topic

Ethics av veganism