I no longer believe

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Nothing new or original. I'm sure you know about the Cosmological Argument that points out how, for every thing that has a beginning, there must be a cause. And, thus, there had to be an ultimate cause with no beginning (i.e. God).

Although atheists don't agree with that argument, I take it very seriously because it makes so much sense to me that there is something supernatural out there that caused the universe to exist through the Big Bang instead of believing that there was nothing ... and then there was the Big Bang. Ironically, even that sounds somehow supernatural.

Of course, some atheists might point out that they don't believe the Big Bang was the first event that occurred in the ultimate reality and that the universe (as a whole) has always existed ... so they wonder why we can argue that God has existed but that the universe has never always existed. My response would be that science itself shows that the universe is not infinite (evidence is that it is expanding). Therefore, if the universe is not infinite and it is expanding, then it shows that it came about through the Big Bang. Thus, we go back to the first point I made above ... which is that, since the Big Bang had a beginning, then it must have been caused somehow. So what caused it?

Besides, even IF the universe has always been (even before the Big Bang), then we still needed a sentient being to trigger the first change(s) to happen. I just can't imagine how a mere universe on its own would cause any change just like that without some form of sentience/intelligence directly/indirectly triggering it.

Science shows that the universe in this form had a beginning. As to what happened before that or concurrently with that, we simply don't know. There are many possibilities. This may be one bubble in a series of universes attached to a larger structure, or there may be an eternal series of universes, or this may be a single temporary event rooted in some physics that we will never understand.

The bible is no more intellectually satisfying because there is no answer for the question, "why something rather than nothing" in either science or christianity. The bible does not address it. It's a bronze age mythology that focuses on the purpose of human life, not ultimate causation. They simply gloss over what the god was doing floating in the void for eternity. No reason is offered.

Even assuming that children who die all go to heaven, what about their parents? They're doomed to hell for having the misfortune to have been born in a non-christian country and survive to adulthood?

As far as Jews going to heaven - nope. Not according to the Bible. Most Bible-following xians say that only xians go to heaven, and (usually) only their particular stripe of xian at that; furthermore, one must place one's faith in Jeebus while still alive. If you repent after you're dead, it's too late and you're doomed to hell forever.

The church I used to go to was mostly made up of elderly people. lol I went with my grandparents. And the church preached, "Do as the Bible says or you'll burn in Hell." Then when I realized that there was a lot of contradictions in the Bible, I questioned my beliefs and eventually discovered that I could no longer believe in something that I...well, couldn't believe in anymore. I am happy with my beliefs, and everyone has a right to have his or her own.

In other words, God is whatever lies at the end of the infinite regress. The perch of the bottom turtle, as it were.

There is one thing that I would like to point out here. Some people in this thread have argued that, under the Christian doctine, people can only go to heaven through Christ. This is 100% true. However, people can be saved, by Christ, through what is called, general revelation. One of the earliest Christian beliefs is that those who have never known Christ, or those who never really had a chance to embrace him (this is God's line ball to judge btw), can go to heaven.

Romans 2:7 "To those who by patiently doing good, seek glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life"

This is a bonafide offer of salvation. Someone who, through the general revelation God has placed into all of us can receive salvation. This is not apart from Chirst. Rather it is the benefits of Christ's atonement can be applied to people without the conscious knowlege of Christ.

This sort of offer would be available to persons like Job and Melchizedek, who did not know Christ and were not members of the covenant family of Israel. Who would doubt that they had a relationship with God?

Human caring topic

Many people continue to hang on the belief of a supreme being because they need to make sense of their own deaths, and hope that the human conscious awareness continues after the body is lifeless. Atheists (like me) know there is no rational reason to believe in an afterlife, or a temporal place where they will be reunited with their dead relatives. For me, this was the last hurdle to accept, as this raises the question about the meaning of life. To them I reply that there is a reason for living, for continuing on in this life as long as one can, and leaving some sort of legacy for the next generation, if one chooses.

There may not be some cosmological reason why a person is born but, to know that life is short, it is also comforting to know that a person can make some constructive difference, some benefit to others, and leave this world perhaps a better place.

if you hear something over and over again you believe it and that doesnt make it the truth.
most of what i've seen from any religion that is. no thanks

I know this is off-topic...

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

1984 is the scariest book I've ever read!

Yes, I'm way too familiar with "what they say about assuming". Where I was coming from though was more that you seemed to be equating faith with that feeling of assurance...?

In any case, as one of the curious, thank you for the post - there is plenty to consider in it; both your story and the numbered points.

The Epistles seem to imply that the general revelation simply guides one to believe in Christ. It's not exactly as you state. You still have to believe that God has sent the Christ to save you from your sins in order to be saved.



That's actually out of context. The Epistles are clear that one is saved by grace alone (through living faith alone).

And when one is saved, then he will bear good fruits (for God) in Jesus Christ. And, then, eternal life will eventually be given to the believer as his reward

Have a read of Ephesians 2:8-10.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice how the good works that a believer in Christ does are all prepared by God in advance for the believer to do. That's so no one can boast that he is saved by his own works.

So justification is by grace alone, which means it's not by one's own works.



That's just you making stuff up. The Bible doesn't support what you say.



The Epistles are clear that people like Job and Melchizedek and others looked forward to the Christ. They knew God and, therefore, they knew Christ.

Of course, this is all BS in the long run, not every person who lives has heard about the Christ. But we can't help what the Bible says.

EDIT: Actually, in Hebrews, it is said that Melchizedek himself is the Christ.

Last edited by MCalavera on 30 Jan 2011, 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

I t seems you got affected by the Roman Catholic propaganda against evangelical Christianity in general.

Salvation by grace alone through faith alone does not mean that all one has to do is profess faith. He must believe.

What's the difference? Honestly, I don't really know. But the Bible makes that distinction. Read James 2.



I'm glad to have satisfied your curiosity. Never be afraid to seriously question the current beliefs you have. God is not going to kill you for it.

Yes, but does that feeling of assurance constitute belief? It always fades; it's not meant to last. And I'd say that doubting/questioning faith is a lifelong essential. What you experienced once those two months were up was entirely normal.

@MCalavera

The epistle state that, yes, one is saved by Christ, however, they can be saved through general revelation. If it required the knowing of Christ, then it would be 'special' wouldn't it? General revelation is well supported in the scriptures and as it says, it means all are without excuse.

The interpretation that was put forward in your last post, is quite Biblical, this is true. However is it correct. A Calvinist can be equally Biblical in his view (though I doubt he could deal effectively with your OP), this does not mean it is correct. The process of exergesis that you have used seems to leave out the need for God to be just and loving, as he claims so often to be throughout the texts. The idea that someone could be sent to hell without a good reason is quite beyond me, and the interpretive power of the text.

I would like to return to a quote I posted earlier, in a different thread:

'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and rather not that he should turn from his way and live?... For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord God; so turn, and live!... Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways: for why will you die?' (Ezek. 18:23, 32; 33:11 RSV).

This is a God who clearly wants for people to accept his revelation, nor is it s God who wants to send people to hell. The more correct exergesis, and the one supported by almost all denominations, is the view that God does not send people to hell, without a chance of salvation, for he loves us all. Therefor general revelation is a path to salvation, it is not guaranteed however, it is up to God and it is still through Christ.

You have also mentioned the justification doctrine, this is a rather large issue. However, since Vatican II the Chruch has released a join statement on justification with the Lutherans. It is only the more charismatic denominations that still consider the issue unresolved.

I will not HERE [will have to think about whether elsewhere] get deep down specific. Nothing to do with the availability of Christian literature - I have the resources of a major university library, and have read in a variety of religious traditions.

For the record: PREACHING had NOTHING to do with it. Nor was it anything to do with attraction.

I can agree that it is not intellectual respose that holds me in Christ, nor will reasoning unsupported by the Spifrit bring anyone here.

But - actual fact - at the time I looked around, and saw that nothing but Christianity offered an answer to what went on. Which started me peeping in the door.

Pandabear:

I am very fond of the life of Bryan, and the end is excellent, but I do not see what inserting the clip has to do with the subject.