Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Evidence vs Faith

Page 3 of 4 [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

14 Feb 2011, 12:41 am

91 wrote:
Post-Natural Science is all about avoiding doubt and scrutiny. This is what PJW is talking about. AG jumped straight into the attack without knowing what was being discussed. In fact he dismissed PJW's central point and decided to launch right in. Doubt may be recognizable as one of the basic tenets of scientific procedure. I just see so very little of it on these posts. Someone said something bad against science, so AG jumped right in. This is the zeal of a convert by any standard.

PJW was talking about actual science. He stated "science" without a modifying statement in his context. He also cited the meteorological issue of climate change as an example, even though it is talked about by meteorologists who use scientific methods. In no place did PJW state "post-natural science" until he referred to another post he made in another thread.

I didn't do anything illegitimate, and ruveyn also posted in response to PJW in what appears to clearly be a rebuttal. Now, if ruveyn and I are rebutting the same poster, and you claim that I am without doubt, but ruvyen to be filled with doubt on the basis of a similar action, then I have to say that this appears to be a dishonest methodology.



TheKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,100
Location: Merced, California

14 Feb 2011, 12:43 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
PJW wrote:
Science asks for faith and forbearance in return for a chance that its hypotheses might be right. Sound like anything else you know?

You mean that people started testing reality, this became institutionalized as science, and we started moving everything to more and more rigorous testing because it both was intuitive and proved successful.

Quote:
Science can't prove that science exists, let alone the universe. And what about life itself? It had to start somewhere. Science can't prove that life began.

Actually, science can prove that science exists, all that is required is sociology. Science can prove life exists, it just defines it, and then shows that this exists. Science also shows that life began in that it shows that based upon our evidence, the universe is older than the earth.

Quote:
Everything it can't prove, you take on faith. Everything it purports to prove, you take as gospel. Everything that is true is the combination of the two. Sounds a lot like a religion to me.

I think that you are an unclear thinker, and don't actually think that anything you are saying really is in touch with reality. I don't really know where to begin with your comments, as I already rebutted the ideas underlying such notions:

"Science gets our respect because it works by being rigorous by standards that are already intuitive(empiricism and theorizing) and gets the results."

If you disagree with me, why not actually substantively address my comment instead of talking in such a bizarre way.

Quote:
Remember my point about post-natural science and its inherent nobility and morality allowing for corruption of the scientific ethos? Sounds a lot like the setting up of a church.

I don't remember your point. I probably thought that whatever you were saying was garbage and didn't give it another thought.

Churches don't follow our intuitions, nor do they get results. That's a major difference.

Quote:
THINK instead of spouting.

I do think. You don't. I've made a clear point. I've studied some actual philosophy of science. I have some notion of what I am talking about.


Stephen Hawking, who recently retired from the same position at Cambridge held by John Newton, says the finely-tuned universe created itself from nothing. Hawking’s new book, The Grand Design, co-authored with American physicist Leonard Mlodinow, says: “Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. ... Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. ... It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.” In fact, the law of gravity doesn’t create anything, and science has never discovered a law that would account for life arising from non-life and information arising from non-intelligence, though evolutionists have searched for such a law earnestly for a century and a half.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02118.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2 ... appen.html
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... -our-grasp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_ ... %28book%29


_________________
WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.


TheKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,100
Location: Merced, California

14 Feb 2011, 12:48 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Didn't Greek and Roman gods and goddesses have a tendency for promiscuity, killing people just cause, using mortals as playthings, etc.

God seen in the Jewish and Christian faith, always has a reason for things, we may not understand but there always is one. The test of Abraham was a prelude to Jesus, in fact the entire Bible meshes together in a way we really don't see in other religions aside from Judaism.


yeah God killing every first born in Egypt for the pharaoh not releasing thousands of Jewish prisoners but doing nothing when Hitler kills millions of Jews, yeah that certainly seems to be just because or how about God f*****g Mary that sounds pretty sexually promiscuous especially since she was with Joseph at the time meaning she committed adultery


_________________
WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

14 Feb 2011, 12:50 am

TheKing wrote:
MCalavera wrote:

Ok, let's have a discussion on this in a new thread. What do you reckon?

If I'm wrong, you are free to correct me and I will admit that I'm wrong. In your new thread, please post the historical evidence that points to the relevant stuff that you said above.


its common knowledge to any dolt with even a basic knowledge of Ancient Histories i spent several years doing nothing but studying history because at one point i was OBSESSED with Ancient History and even aspired to be a High School history teacher

This should be somewhat interesting. I think TheKing is trying to promote mythicism, an idea that is usually rejected by historians on early Christianity, but which does sporadically gain intelligent followers. I think MCalavera is probably just holding more to the mainline historical tale. This isn't to say who is right or wrong though.



TheKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,100
Location: Merced, California

14 Feb 2011, 12:53 am

MCalavera wrote:
LKL wrote:
No, actually, he's right. There are a lot of things about Christianity that echo prior religions.


First of all, correlation doesn't imply causation.

Second, people who argue for the idea that Christianity is not original usually argue for the lie that there were other mythological characters before Jesus that did all the things that Jesus was described as doing in the Bible. Since this topic is about faith and evidence, then let me make it clear now that there is no historical evidence for such a lie and that such silly arguments are based on blind faith just like any religion.

Christianity IS original. That's why it's quite successful as a religion.


its successful because it made itself the most powerful force in the world for over 1000 years making it seem important despite the BS

the last time christianity ruled the world it was called the dark ages for good reason NO ONE was educated except the Nobles and those involved in christianity not until the Renaissance


_________________
WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.


MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

14 Feb 2011, 1:20 am

TheKing wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
LKL wrote:
No, actually, he's right. There are a lot of things about Christianity that echo prior religions.


First of all, correlation doesn't imply causation.

Second, people who argue for the idea that Christianity is not original usually argue for the lie that there were other mythological characters before Jesus that did all the things that Jesus was described as doing in the Bible. Since this topic is about faith and evidence, then let me make it clear now that there is no historical evidence for such a lie and that such silly arguments are based on blind faith just like any religion.

Christianity IS original. That's why it's quite successful as a religion.


its successful because it made itself the most powerful force in the world for over 1000 years making it seem important despite the BS

the last time christianity ruled the world it was called the dark ages for good reason NO ONE was educated except the Nobles and those involved in christianity not until the Renaissance


You do have a point there, but Christianity still does have unique doctrines that make it quite attractive to many.

Anyway, I just noticed your newest thread ... so I'll reply there shortly once I'm done with this computer job here.



TheKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,100
Location: Merced, California

14 Feb 2011, 1:35 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
TheKing wrote:
MCalavera wrote:

Ok, let's have a discussion on this in a new thread. What do you reckon?

If I'm wrong, you are free to correct me and I will admit that I'm wrong. In your new thread, please post the historical evidence that points to the relevant stuff that you said above.


its common knowledge to any dolt with even a basic knowledge of Ancient Histories i spent several years doing nothing but studying history because at one point i was OBSESSED with Ancient History and even aspired to be a High School history teacher

This should be somewhat interesting. I think TheKing is trying to promote mythicism, an idea that is usually rejected by historians on early Christianity, but which does sporadically gain intelligent followers. I think MCalavera is probably just holding more to the mainline historical tale. This isn't to say who is right or wrong though.


nah i promote Atheism but he is saying Christianity is original even though history proves him wrong and im just trying to make him see that history has proved him wrong but he is apparently to blind


_________________
WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.


Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

14 Feb 2011, 1:36 am

Quote:
people who argue for the idea that Christianity is not original usually argue for the lie that there were other mythological characters before Jesus that did all the things that Jesus was described as doing in the Bible. Since this topic is about faith and evidence, then let me make it clear now that there is no historical evidence for such a lie and that such silly arguments are based on blind faith just like any religion.

Christianity became somewhat syncretic with beliefs from Mithraism and Zoroastrianism by the 4th century, in addition to its obvious Abrahamaic roots and possibly others. That doesn't make it any less interesting to me though, but I don't think any religion is truly 'original'. We don't know very much about the religion of the Proto-Indo Europeans at this point but I would say that most beliefs have been handed down since that time but reworked or 'updated'. Syncretic religions often arise after at least a ~millennium of dominance by another. For example, Baha'i could be considered analogous to Christianity, in that it is sprung from Islam (like Christianity is from Judaism) but borrows many other ideas from the time period, such as Babism


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

14 Feb 2011, 1:42 am

Vigilans wrote:
Christianity became somewhat syncretic with beliefs from Mithraism and Zoroastrianism by the 4th century


4th century? I'm speaking of the original Christianity here.



Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

14 Feb 2011, 1:50 am

MCalavera wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Christianity became somewhat syncretic with beliefs from Mithraism and Zoroastrianism by the 4th century


4th century? I'm speaking of the original Christianity here.


Well, even so, it wasn't just at the drop of the hat in the 4th century, it took four centuries of mixing before syncretisms were totally obvious but there are subtler signs in the early years. And besides that, with roots in Judaism its hard to call Christianity truly 'original' though there are certainly many parts that are original. I don't blame Christianity for the Dark Ages or the barbarism of the Middle Ages personally, though this would seem obvious [religion's responsibility] to most people when looking at the facts. However I am more of the opinion that religion is only as good as the people who practice it, so I blame these dark periods of un-enlightenment on church politics and power struggles between people who were certainly not acting in a Christian manner. I mean most of the Medieval grand cathedrals of Europe were built with money that people shelled out so they could spend time in purgatory instead of going to hell :roll: The original scam in a way, that has no basis in the actual religion. I almost compare that to tevangelists like Peter Popoff


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

14 Feb 2011, 2:00 am

Vigilans wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Christianity became somewhat syncretic with beliefs from Mithraism and Zoroastrianism by the 4th century


4th century? I'm speaking of the original Christianity here.


Well, even so, it wasn't just at the drop of the hat in the 4th century, it took four centuries of mixing before syncretisms were totally obvious but there are subtler signs in the early years.


Note that every book in the New Testament was written way before the 4th century.

Otherwise, I do agree with the main point that you're trying to make. No problem with that.



Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

14 Feb 2011, 2:04 am

No I don't mean the actual books of the New Testament but rather practices such as Christmas and Easter and perhaps the later organization of the Church. I don't profess to be an expert in Christian history :) . I definitely believe Jesus was a real man though, unlike many non-Theists I guess :P . In my view he was a really great guy that had a profound message like a few others throughout history


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


TheKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,100
Location: Merced, California

14 Feb 2011, 2:30 am

Vigilans wrote:
No I don't mean the actual books of the New Testament but rather practices such as Christmas and Easter and perhaps the later organization of the Church. I don't profess to be an expert in Christian history :) . I definitely believe Jesus was a real man though, unlike many non-Theists I guess :P . In my view he was a really great guy that had a profound message like a few others throughout history


im not an expert on anything really sure i know a lot but there is actually very little i know that can be put to practical use other than annoying people with random zippy wow facts im pretty useless it sucks because even though i would love to be a BioMedical Gerontologist i have NOTHING really to offer to the world and i hate being a burden on other people i would rather be dead than a burden on anyone TBH


_________________
WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 100
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

14 Feb 2011, 2:33 am

TheKing wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
No I don't mean the actual books of the New Testament but rather practices such as Christmas and Easter and perhaps the later organization of the Church. I don't profess to be an expert in Christian history :) . I definitely believe Jesus was a real man though, unlike many non-Theists I guess :P . In my view he was a really great guy that had a profound message like a few others throughout history


im not an expert on anything really sure i know a lot but there is actually very little i know that can be put to practical use other than annoying people with random zippy wow facts im pretty useless it sucks because even though i would love to be a BioMedical Gerontologist i have NOTHING really to offer to the world and i hate being a burden on other people i would rather be dead than a burden on anyone TBH


No problem. You'll be dead soon enough. Meanwhile you have a bit of time to experiment.



Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

14 Feb 2011, 2:35 am

TheKing wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
No I don't mean the actual books of the New Testament but rather practices such as Christmas and Easter and perhaps the later organization of the Church. I don't profess to be an expert in Christian history :) . I definitely believe Jesus was a real man though, unlike many non-Theists I guess :P . In my view he was a really great guy that had a profound message like a few others throughout history


im not an expert on anything really sure i know a lot but there is actually very little i know that can be put to practical use other than annoying people with random zippy wow facts im pretty useless it sucks because even though i would love to be a BioMedical Gerontologist i have NOTHING really to offer to the world and i hate being a burden on other people i would rather be dead than a burden on anyone TBH


Feeling a little blue tonight King? Don't worry man I think you're intelligent :) . When I was 17 I didn't really know what to do with myself either. You have obvious intellectual capacity just find a field where your extensive knowledge can be made use of. Who knows you could even end up fulfilling that dream!


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


TheKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,100
Location: Merced, California

14 Feb 2011, 2:45 am

Sand wrote:
TheKing wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
No I don't mean the actual books of the New Testament but rather practices such as Christmas and Easter and perhaps the later organization of the Church. I don't profess to be an expert in Christian history :) . I definitely believe Jesus was a real man though, unlike many non-Theists I guess :P . In my view he was a really great guy that had a profound message like a few others throughout history


im not an expert on anything really sure i know a lot but there is actually very little i know that can be put to practical use other than annoying people with random zippy wow facts im pretty useless it sucks because even though i would love to be a BioMedical Gerontologist i have NOTHING really to offer to the world and i hate being a burden on other people i would rather be dead than a burden on anyone TBH


No problem. You'll be dead soon enough. Meanwhile you have a bit of time to experiment.


im interested in BioMedical Gerontology(the study of life extension) because i DONT want to die


_________________
WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.