Israels attack on Lebanon.

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McJeff
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18 Jul 2006, 1:38 am

Laz wrote:

Neither of those b****** should have nuclear weapons.

Israel most definitely deserves to have Nuclear weapons.

They have one of the best human rights records in the world.

Unlike the Arab nations you love so much, they are socially progressive. Civil rights, gay rights, all those things that are liable to get you killed in any Arab nation, are the LAW in Israel.

Furthermore, Israel has proven through its actions that they can be trusted with Nuclear weapons. Don't agree? I give you: Iran, Syria, not uninhabitable due to radiation.

They could have just told the Palestinians to stuff it. Instead they forked over the Gaza Strip, and now have daily terrorist attacks from the Palestinians in that region to show for it.

peebo
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18 Jul 2006, 3:16 am

McJeff wrote:

They have one of the best human rights records in the world.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm

Quote:

The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there continued to be problems with respect to its treatment of its Arab citizens. Israeli and international human rights organizations continued to report allegations that security forces tortured detainees during interrogation and that police officers beat detainees. The conditions in military detention camps and Israeli interrogation centers for Palestinian security detainees held in Israel remained poor, and did not meet international standards. Human rights groups issued complaints regarding torture, insufficient living space, and inadequate medical care for those detained in interrogation centers. During the year, the Government detained without charge thousands of persons in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. According to human rights nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) in the country, some security prisoners were sentenced on the basis of coerced confessions.

The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens, who constituted approximately 20 percent of the population but did not share fully the rights and benefits provided to, and obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens. The Government interfered with individual privacy in some instances. The Government interfered with an individual's ability to marry within the country by not recognizing Jewish marriages other than those performed by the Orthodox Jewish establishment and by prohibiting civil marriages. Discrimination and societal violence against women persisted, although the Government continued to take steps to address these problems. Discrimination against persons with disabilities persisted. Trafficking in women into the country for the purpose of forced prostitution was a continuing problem. There was evidence of labor trafficking among the country's estimated 236,000 foreign workers. Abuse of foreign workers, including prostitutes, some of whom were trafficked to and employed illegally in the country, continued.

Quote:

Israel carried out policies of demolitions, strict curfews, and closures that directly punished innocent civilians. Israel demolished the homes of families and relatives of suspected terrorists as well as buildings suspected terrorists used as hideouts. Israel's demolitions left hundreds of Palestinians not involved in terror attacks homeless. Israel often demolished homes after suspects had already been killed or arrested. Israel maintained that such punishment of innocents would serve as a deterrent against future terrorist attacks.

Quote:

The IDF destroyed numerous orchards, olive and date groves, and irrigation systems on Palestinian-controlled agricultural land. Israel constructed parts of a large security barrier on land inside the West Bank isolating residents and limiting access to hospitals, schools, social services, and agricultural property. At year's end, Israel was engaged in a process of reconsideration and reassessment of the routing and operation of the security barrier. A number of petitions in connection with the routing and operation of the barrier were pending before Israel's Supreme Court. In several instances, Israel killed, injured, and obstructed human rights monitors and NGO workers through the use of excessive deadly force and the imposition of strict closures. Israel censored Palestinian publications in East Jerusalem, raided and closed media outlets in the territories, blocked publications and broadcasts, and periodically detained or harassed members of the media and clergy. IDF fire allegedly killed two journalists covering clashes between Palestinians and Israeli security forces, both of whom had clearly identified themselves as noncombatants, and injured at least three others. The Israeli authorities placed strict limits on freedom of assembly and severely restricted freedom of movement for Palestinians. Israeli security forces failed to prevent Israelis from entering Palestinian-controlled areas in the West Bank who injured or killed several Palestinians. In some cases, Israeli soldiers escorted Israeli civilians who beat Palestinians and damaged Palestinian property.

Quote:

Israeli security forces used excessive force against protesters, in response to threats while on patrols, in pursuing fleeing suspects, and in responding to trespassers in restricted areas, at times resulting in death. Israel also used excessive lethal force against rock-throwers in some instances. For example, on September 15, IDF soldiers shot and killed 10-year-old Ahmad Abu Latifa near the Qalandia checkpoint north of Jerusalem. The boy was among a group of youths who were throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers.

IDF soldiers shot and killed suspects who were avoiding arrest, but in a number of cases who posed no apparent mortal threat to the soldiers at the time of the incidents. For example, on February 10, IDF soldiers in Nablus shot and killed PFLP member Imad Mabrouk when he attempted to escape arrest. On July 3, IDF soldiers in Qalqilya shot and killed al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades militant Ahmad Shawar when he attempted to run away after being ordered to halt.

IDF soldiers fired without warning on unarmed Palestinian trespassers in or near restricted areas, on several occasions killing Palestinians. For example, on March 5, an IDF soldier shot and killed 75-year-old Abdallah Shehadeh al-Ash'hab as he rode a donkey collecting firewood on his property, which was located near the Netzarim settlement in the Gaza Strip.

Quote:

They could have just told the Palestinians to stuff it. Instead they forked over the Gaza Strip, and now have daily terrorist attacks from the Palestinians in that region to show for it.

the military occupation of gaza was illegal under international law.

Tekneek
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18 Jul 2006, 4:31 am

Scrapheap wrote:

The people of Southern Lebenon have mad a "Deal With The Devil" by allowing Hezbollah to take over the region. Much like "innocent" Germans who found themselves in WW II. Dresden was a beautiful city too. That did'nt stop it from getting the crap bombed out of it.

This attitude justifies Osama bin Laden's opinion on any attacks against any Americans. He says that every single person in America is responsible for the actions of its government because we, presumably, don't do anything to stop it from doing offensive things. This is a slippery slope that I don't want to go down. If some private security firm (aka outsourced military work from the DoD) does something awful to some Iraqis, are you saying that Iraqis have a legitimate right to bomb the area in the US that this firm is located in? What if they just bomb areas that are heavily Republican as a response to the actions of our Republican controlled government?

As far as Dresden goes, that situation was made very much different because war was actually declared officially against Germany and Germany had declared war against the other nations. It doesn't change the fact that civilians were killed, but I am willing to say that civilians will have to be killed in official war. Israel should just make an official war declaration against Lebanon and stop acting like a rogue terrorist nation.

If Israel has one of the best human rights records in the world, the rest of the world must be pretty awful.

Tekneek
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18 Jul 2006, 4:50 am

McJeff wrote:

Israel most definitely deserves to have Nuclear weapons.

Why? Who else deserves them, that does not already have them?

Quote:

They have one of the best human rights records in the world.

Either most nations have terrible human rights records, or this statement needs some revision.

Quote:

Unlike the Arab nations you love so much, they are socially progressive. Civil rights, gay rights, all those things that are liable to get you killed in any Arab nation, are the LAW in Israel.

Just because dropping bombs on civilians in Lebanon is wrong does not mean Lebanon or other Arab nations are the best governments on the planet. Your claim that criticism of Israel means someone loves "Arab nations" does not seem logical to me. Why do you think it has to be that way?

Quote:

Furthermore, Israel has proven through its actions that they can be trusted with Nuclear weapons. Don't agree? I give you: Iran, Syria, not uninhabitable due to radiation.

So, if Iran gets the capability and doesn't nuke Israel, it means it was ok for them to have it?

Quote:

They could have just told the Palestinians to stuff it. Instead they forked over the Gaza Strip, and now have daily terrorist attacks from the Palestinians in that region to show for it.

They gave it back because pretty much the entire world was against continuing down the road they were on. They can't risk the chance that the United States might stop protecting them in the UN Security Council with their vetoes. When push comes to shove, they have to throw a few bones back so the US will protect them like a little brother when the rest of the world comes calling. The US has vetoed hundreds of resolutions involving Israel over the decades. It may be the largest use of the veto privledge overall.

peebo
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18 Jul 2006, 6:25 am

Scrapheap wrote:

ljbouchard wrote:

Then the US should not have any weapons of mass destruction either.

Can we keep this dicussion out of the land of Oz??

in the context of ljbouchard's statement (a reply to laz's point that religious nutjobs should not have nuclear weapons) does he not have a valid point? it is well known that your current government is generally christian in nature, with a bent towards fundamentalism, your president claims he acts on instructions from god, and fundamentalist groups such as the apostolic congress among others are influential in regard to many of its policies, including its foreign policy in terms of the middle east.
so what specifically is so ridiculous about ljbouchard's comment?

Raph522
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18 Jul 2006, 9:08 am

McJeff wrote:

Israel most definitely deserves to have Nuclear weapons.

I don't agree, no one at all deserves them, not in the entire world.. Especially not a country that may use them.

Nuclear weapons kill a lot of people. if they used one it would most likely kill more innocent people than anyone.

No one should have the right to kill innocent people. the only thing using them will do is give people a chance to say "see, israel is horrible." It would probably earn them a lot more enemies and people will still attack israel. That will cause more innocent Israelis to die.

it obviously does not working as a 'scare tactic' because people still attack Israel anyway.

in my opinion nukes can cause more trouble then they fix

SmallFruitSong
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18 Jul 2006, 9:27 am

I'm tired so I'm not the most coherent, but basically:

/ I have issues with Israel's actions, which seems to be intent on collective punishment. The concept of collective punishment is what drove Nazi Germany in its bloodlust against the Jews, and it is sad that Israel hasn't realised. Just because ONE militant group who happens to base themselves in a city doesn't justify cutting said city from the rest of the world. It also doesn't justify the killing of civilians, nor preventing their escape.

Israel's reaction is overboard and if Hizbollah and other militant groups needed ANYTHING to fuel their hatred for Israel and garner new recruits...then Israel has just given them the opportunity.

/ Israel does not have a good human rights record period, let alone the 'one of the best'. I'm not quite sure where you received that impression, McJeff. If you have any proof to the contrary, I would be interested in reading.

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LePetitPrince
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18 Jul 2006, 12:52 pm

To The Concerned Citizen of The World:

"Killing innocent civilians is NOT an act of self-defense. Destroying a sovereign nation is NOT a measured response."

Lebanese civilians have been under the constant attack of the state of Israel for several days. The State of Israel, in disregard to international law and the Geneva Convention, is launching a maritime and air siege targeting the entire population of the country. Innocent civilians are being collectively punished in Lebanon by the state of Israel in deliberate acts of terrorism as described in Article 33 of the Geneva Convention.

The Lebanese people feel left out by the world that is turning a blind eye on the savagery of the Israeli state. Israel does not seem to be capable of approaching any problem outside the realm of the military power bestowed on it by the government of the United States of America and other western governments.

We are writing you this letter in the hope that this massacre is immediately stopped. It is the universal duty of each individual to defend the innocents and expose the truth. The numerous civilian victims of the Israeli operations are increasing by the hour. The viciousness of the attacks has attained terrifying levels where a child has been cut in three while another was half burned.

The Israeli war machine, in its blind savagery, is destroying not only our lives but the foundations that could help the civilians survive beyond their massacre. The Israeli Defense Forces are destroying in few hours what Lebanon has spent years and billions of dollars to rebuild.

Up until now more than 100 Lebanese civilians have been killed, hundreds wounded, bridges and infrastructure destroyed, refugees are leaving Beirut in droves and worst of all the enforced siege might lead to a human catastrophe in the next 48 hours. There must be an end to this cycle of violence and continuous violation of international laws and basic ethical behavior.

Between the blindness of the international community and the deafness of the Arab one, the besieged Lebanese population has no way out.

DrizzleMan
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18 Jul 2006, 1:45 pm

peebo wrote:

if anyone wishes to correct me on any of the above, feel free, its been a long time since my interest in world politics subsided, and i may have made a few minor errors, but this is roughly how it happened.

That matches what I know. Although, the Israeli army did grow quite quickly during the 1948 war due to refugees from Europe, so I wonder - if it weren't for the Holocaust, how many people would have been prepared to go fight for the independence of a faraway country?

Perhaps what the world should have done then is create a state in Germany (Germany is sixteen times bigger than Israel; plenty of space...) in compensation for the Holocaust, put it under NATO protection so it wouldn't have to protect itself so much, and arranged to transport people already settled in Palestine there. Then the Palestinians would be free, today's Arab states would have had to find a different weapon of mass distraction, and Israel would probably not have developed one of the world's strongest militaries (which I think is a very sad way for a nation to be known) and would have peace...

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McJeff
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18 Jul 2006, 7:53 pm

To everyone who wrote that I was wrong in saying that Israel had proved itself worthy of having nuclear weapons, I don't have the time or inclination to address you seperately... just answer me this.

Find me an example of Israeli human rights violations against people who aren't trying to kill them just because "they're jews" or "they're on my land".

To the person who suggest moving Israel to Germany, why should they have to move? It's their land. Always was, always has been.

Veresae
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18 Jul 2006, 10:13 pm

You know, all this is starting to remind me of the beginning of World War I for some reason....

Also, I'd like to say something in case nobody else has: I wouldn't call suicide bombers "cowardly." Takes a lot of courage to kill yourself--certainly more than it does to fly over a city and drop bombs on it.

I'd join in on the "What Israel is doing is WRONG" posts, but I think others have it covered already.

peebo
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19 Jul 2006, 12:53 am

McJeff wrote:

Find me an example of Israeli human rights violations against people who aren't trying to kill them just because "they're jews" or "they're on my land".

there were several in my reply to your post. here are some of them again.

Quote:

Israel's demolitions left hundreds of Palestinians not involved in terror attacks homeless. Israel often demolished homes after suspects had already been killed or arrested. Israel maintained that such punishment of innocents would serve as a deterrent against future terrorist attacks.

Quote:

In several instances, Israel killed, injured, and obstructed human rights monitors and NGO workers through the use of excessive deadly force and the imposition of strict closures.

Quote:

IDF fire allegedly killed two journalists covering clashes between Palestinians and Israeli security forces, both of whom had clearly identified themselves as noncombatants, and injured at least three others.

Quote:

For example, on March 5, an IDF soldier shot and killed 75-year-old Abdallah Shehadeh al-Ash'hab as he rode a donkey collecting firewood on his property, which was located near the Netzarim settlement in the Gaza Strip.

McJeff
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19 Jul 2006, 3:37 am

Kid, learn to read. I specified that I didn't want to hear about violations against the Palestinians, because Israel is in a perpetual state of war with them, thanks to them and only them. Every incident of Israeli aggression can be traced back to more Palestinian suicide bombings, mortar shellings and other terrorist activities.

peebo, I'd appreciate it you'd quit posting, your posts are really annoying to me because they suck so much.

ljbouchard
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19 Jul 2006, 4:28 am

To injure civilians is totally and utterly wrong, even during war. Israel has a history of responding to an action with more force then necessary. That is what is happening in Lebabnon. Nuclear weapons in the hands of a group of people that have been proven to react excessively is not a good idea.

I would like to see Peebo's sources before I comment on the validity of them. I am not saying either of you are wrong, I just want to know where he is getting his information.

Finally McJeff, if you are going to debate, then please, attack the persons arguments, not the person.

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DrizzleMan
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19 Jul 2006, 12:00 pm

McJeff wrote:

To the person who suggest moving Israel to Germany, why should they have to move? It's their land. Always was, always has been.

Read more carefully. I said it could have saved a lot of trouble if Germany had given land after WW II. Instead, the Jews who survived and tried to return to their homes found that they'd been taken; most of them fled to America and Israel.

You can't move Israel now, that would be ethnic cleansing.

Tekneek wrote:

Exactly. Blaming either side exclusively is stupid; this is a long and complex conflict. The only way there'll be peace is when all sides do a lot of forgiving.

Tekneek wrote:

If Israel has one of the best human rights records in the world, the rest of the world must be pretty awful.

The area of the world around Israel is pretty awful actually. I'd guess that Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia are all worse than Israel: but they oppress their own citizens instead of fighting neighbours, so it doesn't get into the news so much.

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19 Jul 2006, 3:05 pm

Israel have one common belief ,"An eye for an eye".

They didn't kill the 100 civilian in the first place because the Hezabollah did some casaulties in Heifa. I don't believe every news media but some news basically make Israel a bad guy. The bottemline when Israel was looking for the lost soldier. It does piss them off when something happen to their troops. Honestly, their military view is different then our US Army. They make military forces family orientated. When a boy and girl get graduated from high school they are force to serve in the military. No dream. No goal. Your destiny is serving in Israel's military.According to one of spokeman opinion on Israel, he claim that they fight and live as a warrior. No older man walk in the street without guns if they can afford it.

Regarding to Hezabollah, they are more similar to Hamas except they acquires better weapon from Iran. While some of you disagree, Hezabollah are terrorist and are willing to fight.

The problem with muslims in Arab countries that they can't maintain friendship with one another. They alway fights or cause riot among brother or group. If you were that cartoonist showing picture of Mohammed, you would be shock from their reaction. A perfect example. Islam will never be a "perfect" peace and will never will. It take lots of brainwash from teaching and propagda in order them to be inspires to kill infidel (non-believer).

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