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France Bans The Burqa

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zen_mistress
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11 Apr 2011, 11:18 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 43375.html


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MCalavera
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11 Apr 2011, 11:23 pm

small off-topic question:

zen_mistress, are you Lebanese or anything related to Lebanese? Just a curiosity thing.



zen_mistress
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11 Apr 2011, 11:28 pm

No, why? I am part Indian though.


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MCalavera
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11 Apr 2011, 11:30 pm

zen_mistress wrote:
No, why? I am part Indian though.


Ok, just your signature reveals a Lebanese name (Amin Maalouf).



Orwell
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11 Apr 2011, 11:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The government has no business telling people what to wear or what not to wear. If a woman wants to wear a burqa, she should have the right to wear a burqa. If they don't want Muslims in their country then they should have the guts to not let them in.


The Burqa covers the face and makes identification difficult or impossible. Given the terrorist habits of Muslims, masked Muslims are a potential threat to peace, quiet, law and order. Masks of any sort should be banned especially in banks, railway terminals, airports and theaters where large crowds gather.

ruveyn

That is a ridiculous ad hoc justification. Do you propose banning Halloween costumes?


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zen_mistress
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11 Apr 2011, 11:49 pm

MCalavera wrote:
zen_mistress wrote:
No, why? I am part Indian though.


Ok, just your signature reveals a Lebanese name (Amin Maalouf).


It was a quote I found on the internet and liked. Also I have an interest in different cultures. And a love of travel.


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Tequila
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11 Apr 2011, 11:52 pm

Orwell wrote:
That is a ridiculous ad hoc justification. Do you propose banning Halloween costumes?


Can I wear my balaclava? If not, why not?



cdfox7
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11 Apr 2011, 11:56 pm

Orwell wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The government has no business telling people what to wear or what not to wear. If a woman wants to wear a burqa, she should have the right to wear a burqa. If they don't want Muslims in their country then they should have the guts to not let them in.


The Burqa covers the face and makes identification difficult or impossible. Given the terrorist habits of Muslims, masked Muslims are a potential threat to peace, quiet, law and order. Masks of any sort should be banned especially in banks, railway terminals, airports and theaters where large crowds gather.

ruveyn

That is a ridiculous ad hoc justification. Do you propose banning Halloween costumes?


Is it, that only you opinion. have a read at this http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/0 ... or-charges
It happened at my local airport in 2009.



Last edited by cdfox7 on 12 Apr 2011, 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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11 Apr 2011, 11:59 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48[/youtube]



MotherKnowsBest
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12 Apr 2011, 3:59 am

Tequila wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
Then again the European human rights courts haven't had there final say it right now, so Sarkozy better be on his garde.


The French generally ignore any law they don't like. If there is mass popular support for the veil ban in France I can't see the ECHR being able to overturn that.


They won't overturn it, the principal has already been tested and the precedent set. In Leyla Sahin v. Turkey [2004] ECHR 44774/98 they ruled that the state banning of religious clothing was not a human rights violation. In this instance it was the banning of headscarfs in universities.

If you like to inflict pain on yourself and want to read the ruling in full, shout and I'll pull it up and link it.



ruveyn
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12 Apr 2011, 5:40 am

Orwell wrote:
That is a ridiculous ad hoc justification. Do you propose banning Halloween costumes?


at banks, airports, railway stations and any place that large numbers of people gather.

A person should be readily identifiable if he goes in public.

For halloween day, kids accompanied by unmasked parents would be quite alright.

No masks in public. No disguises in public. Everyone should be identifiable in public.

In the State of New Jersey the banks require that people take off ski masks, dark glasses and any form of attire that makes identification difficult prior to entering the bank building.

ruveyn



Tequila
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12 Apr 2011, 5:48 am

ruveyn wrote:
No masks in public. No disguises in public. Everyone should be identifiable in public.


Have you heard of the likes of the Forward Intelligence Team here in the UK? People who go on demonstrations fear harassment and victimisation by police and their photographers if they go uncovered.



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12 Apr 2011, 7:11 am

zen_mistress wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The government has no business telling people what to wear or what not to wear. If a woman wants to wear a burqa, she should have the right to wear a burqa. If they don't want Muslims in their country then they should have the guts to not let them in.


The Burqa covers the face and makes identification difficult or impossible. Given the terrorist habits of Muslims, masked Muslims are a potential threat to peace, quiet, law and order. Masks of any sort should be banned especially in banks, railway terminals, airports and theaters where large crowds gather.

ruveyn


tbh I don't really buy the terrorist argument. In every Muslim terrorist attack so far that I remember, they have worn modern Western dress. They don't want to draw attention obviously. Now I don't think they should be able to use burqas or face veils in IDs or whenever they have to be properly identified. I don't think it hurts anything out and about tho. I think this has more to do with them not wanting Muslims in their country.


The thing is, The Prophet Mohammed did not stipulate women dress like that. A dislike of the burqa or niqab does not equal an intolerance of muslims, it is an intolerance of female oppression.

Yes the burqa is hated by muslims as well. A black african coworker named mohammed from senegal told me about how "the Koran just says 'dress modestly'", and how people who go to Pakistan and come back with these crazy ideas about burkas are as foriegn to his muslim countrymen as they are to americans.

But if you're in a sect that buys into the burqa why do you assume that women are being "oppressed"? Maybe they dont see themselves as oppressed. Nuns consider it liberating not to have to decide what outfit to wear each day. Maybe they see it as protection from lustful attention from men or whatever. Maybe the pressure comes from their moms and not from the male relatives.
If you could demonstrate that burka wearing really is a form of spousal or domestic abuse then I would go with your ban. Otherwise banning the burqa is just as unAmerican as requiring a burka. People have the right to dress in dumb ways.



ikorack
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12 Apr 2011, 7:40 am

Orwell wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The government has no business telling people what to wear or what not to wear. If a woman wants to wear a burqa, she should have the right to wear a burqa. If they don't want Muslims in their country then they should have the guts to not let them in.


The Burqa covers the face and makes identification difficult or impossible. Given the terrorist habits of Muslims, masked Muslims are a potential threat to peace, quiet, law and order. Masks of any sort should be banned especially in banks, railway terminals, airports and theaters where large crowds gather.

ruveyn

That is a ridiculous ad hoc justification. Do you propose banning Halloween costumes?


Masks are banned in many places, sometimes the exception is only Halloween.



Tequila
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12 Apr 2011, 7:58 am

Have they never heard of Mischief Night?



JeremyNJ1984
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12 Apr 2011, 8:04 am

Muslims are a significant minority in France now. Making sure they respect French law and its Secular based approach is critical. You can't have people in burqas...imagine a crime happened and you needed identification using video evidence...how about a routine police stop, how would cops handle a photo ID for drivers licenses and matching it up with the person driving the car. This is not Saudi Arabia, this is France. You moved there for a reason, and as a guest or a citizen you either took on the responsiblities or an oath of allegiance to the values of the state.