Some Christians Shun Easter Celebrations

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Oh, I see. Sorry. I just assumed everyone here would know what those words meant, because you all seem to be far more learned than me.

I didn't mean believe in them in the sense of putting faith in them or worshipping them. I meant believing in them in the sense of acknowledging that they are true.

Typology means a way of interpreting the bible to find out the hidden meaning that God weaves into apparently random events throughout history. Things representing other things. Prophecy in the form of events, as well as just prophecy in the form of words. For example, Abraham being ordered to sacrifice his only son. Abraham was a "type" of God (i.e. he represented him, or was playing his part or role. It was like God was staging a little play to give us a hint about what was going to happen in the future). Isaac was a "type" of Christ. Scholars also refer to what they call "anti-types" when referring to the thing that the type was prophesying about. So they would say that Abraham was the type of Christ, and Christ himself was the anti-type.

I find the terminology (type and anti-type) the scholars make up to be rather irritating, and don't really see the need for it, but I see what they're getting at. The bible is absolutely teeming with types. The passover, with the angel of death passing over those doors that were marked with blood, represents the mercy that will be granted to those who are found bathed in the blood of Christ the lamb on Judgement Day. The exodus from Egypt represents Christ leading home his elect. It goes on and on and on, and once you learn about typology, the Old Testament is no longer dry and boring; it's absolutely fascinating.

With regards to election: I have already written a lot here and have to go do other stuff now. I expect if you go and google it, you will find out what it means. You can learn all about it if you carefully read through the book of Romans. It basically means this: God chooses the people he wants to become Christians, in the same way he chose the people he wanted to become Hebrews. He singles them out. God is the one who chooses who is going to be saved, not us. In the words of Jesus: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." God chose Abraham. He chose the Hebrews. He chose the Levites. He chose the apostles. Choose, choose, choose. When it comes to Christians, he doesn't deviate from his method: he chooses them. Because, as I've already pointed out, all that choosing was in fact typology and prophecy, and a great big hint over and over again, just in case we missed the point: GOD IS THE ONE DOING THE CHOOSING!

A lot of people hate to even entertain the possibility that there is a God who has any kind of control over them, so they hate this doctrine with a passion. But it is pure Christianity. To deny it is to deny that there is a sovereign God. To pray to him "thy will be done" when denying the truth of election is farsical.

This might help:

http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

The ones on the right are doctrinal conclusions reached by studying the bible.

The ones on the left are opposing doctrines, reached by arguing against the one on the right and then clutching at straws and quoting verses out of context in order to attempt to justify said false doctrines.

Last edited by all_white on 13 Apr 2011, 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

No, he was simply teaching the principles behind the law.


To hear that correctly, you must first keep even some of your own context in mind: "What should new converts be told about right worship?" And then along with that, the answer was given to witnesses (the apostles) who were just learning the underlying principles themselves.


Same here.


When you speak of "symbolic laws", I think it might be more accurate to speak of "Temple laws" ... and at present, there is no physical Temple where those laws would be kept.


There is certainly nothing wrong with drawing that kind of conclusion since even Temple priests ate meat that had been sacrificed, but I think the simple point there actually has more to do with seeing and practicing principles in all affairs.


Well, and as 'keet might say, at least our intentions are good!

Pardon me, but you're misquoting him. I'm not. He said "magnify."

ISAIAH 42:21
The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness sake; He will MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honorable.

That is good ... and I find it best to clarify that kind of thing and to be sure the correct words actually reach a listener's ear.

Typology means a way of interpreting the bible ...

I find the terminology (type and anti-type) the scholars make up to be rather irritating, and don't really see the need for it ...[/quote]
Same here, and I have actually come to understand many such terms are but tools used for extrapolation. As you continue on in your studies, keep in mind that Scripture was written for simple people, not for "the scholars".


Yes, types and shadows of several varieties ... but again: Be way of the preacher! S/he is the only one saying "the passover" is representative of "the mercy that will be granted to those who are found bathed in the blood of Christ the lamb on Judgement Day." Salvation awaits those who endure to the end (Matthew 24:13), and truly-Scriptural living makes that endurance possible.


What would you say is the opposite of having been "chosen" or "elected"? Damned? Left to rot? What?

We definitely need to talk about that ... and I like to tongue-in-cheek begin with the words of Erma Bombeck: "Many are called, but few get up!"


Yes, and they occasionally tend to gather right here in PPR!

Keep in mind that we are subject to translations and not reading/speaking original language, and then take a look here:

(BBE) It was the Lord's pleasure, because of his righteousness, to make the teaching great and give it honour.

(CEV) The LORD always does right, and so he wanted his Law to be greatly praised.

(GNB) The LORD is a God who is eager to save, so he exalted his laws and teachings, and he wanted his people to honor them.

(GW) The LORD is pleased because he does what is right. He praises the greatness of his teachings and makes them glorious.

(JPS) The LORD was pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to make the teaching great and glorious.

"It has delighted יהוה, for the sake of His righteousness, to make the Torah great and esteemed." (Isaiah 42:21, ISR)

@kxmode: Is that actually a JW doctrine or just something someone wrote in "The Watchtower"?

I ask because this is the first time I have ever heard anyone say "he established a special meal to commemorate his death."

I have never met a pagan or a Christian who thought that eating chocolate eggs really had anything to with the holiday. Sometimes, people just like to get together and have a good time. And chocolate eggs are yummy and the commercial industry realizes that.
It's kind of funny. Pagans don't usually b***h that Christians stole their holiday, but Christians can get really indignant no matter which side of the fence they stand on. Either it's a filthy heathen holiday (which I don't get because it's a celebration of rebirth) or non-Christians have no right to celebrate their holiday.
I get pretty sick of people telling me that I have no right to celebrate the Christian holidays of Christmas and Easter. I celebrate, not because I'm observing your version of God, nor am I worshiping the gods of my ancestors... I'm observing the family traditions that I grew up loving. If God can reach people in no other way but with an occasion to get families to be together, then isn't that a small victory?

From the things you are saying, I gather you are not really a Christian at all. You must be something else. I have no idea what you are, but your ideas aren't coming from the bible. They're coming from somewhere else.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. I'm not a scholar or a clever person.



If the blood on the doorposts did not represent the blood of Christ, then we all ought to be baffled by this God who, according to you, dishes out random, apparently non-related commands to his Hebrew flock. If there is any other explanation for it (the meaning behind the blood on the doors) would you care to enlighten me and centuries of fellow believers?




That statement is true,




But that one isn't, which is why you haven't been able to provide a quote from the bible to back it up.

I sure can't live by the bible and obey it to the letter under my own steam. I need the new birth of the Holy Ghost to turn me into a new creature and enable me to do good instead of evil. And I know that, because I've read it in the bible, where Paul confesses that he can't do good, either:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. " Rom. 7:18.

And Christ is the only one who enables me to do all things:

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

But without Christ, there's only one thing I can do: nothing.

"Without me, ye can do nothing."

Without Christ, all my attempts to live a perfect life will be useless, because I will still be wicked. I can never earn my way into heaven. Ever.




It's irrelevant what I say, because I am not the one who has designed the entire universe. Let's see what God says:

"Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated."

There you are. That's a quote from Romans, which explains at great length that Jacob represented the elect and Esau represented the non-elect, and thus, non-elect are hated, because it's what they deserve. The elect are loved, not because it's what they deserve if they stand before God in their own right (as sinners, they deserve to be hated, too) but because it pleases God to bring them before Him clothed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Anyone not found written in the Lamb's book of life is damned, yes. They are going to be thrown into the lake of fire, from which believers are saved if they genuinely believe in Christ. You can read all about that in the book of Revelation, after reading all about election in the book of Romans. Being damned is the fate that we all deserve, so none of us have any right to be angry at God for damning anyone. God has chosen some of us - some, not all - to be saved from it. Not because we deserve to be saved, but because it is his will to save us. He can do so if he wants. As he points out in the book of Romans, we are his creation, and he can do with us whatever he pleases. If that offends you, I am baffled by your statement that you are a follower of the Messiah.

Have you ever stopped to think about what happened to all the other types of people that God wasn't choosing? The people who weren't singled out to be part of the Hebrew race? The people who weren't singled out to be apostles? The other eleven tribes, who weren't chosen to minister as priests as were the Levites? They all represent the non-elect (note the word represent: in the case of the other eleven tribes or the disciples not called to be apostles, it doesn't mean they weren't saved, because the Hebrews were all saved under the old covenant, and the disciples were saved under the new). As well as evidence of the elect, you will find an abundance of evidence of the non-elect in the Old Testament, and of God's sovereign right to choose some and not choose others. People can either read the bible carefully and believe and accept the doctrine they find there, whether they like it or not, or they can make up some fairytale doctrine they like better, and then flick through the bible looking for verses to try and justify it. It's up to you what you want to believe. A lie that makes you happy, or the truth that sets you free. Christianity is not about being happy. (At least, not in the temporary sense. Joy is an entirely different thing from happiness). It's about something far more important than that. It's about being righteous. And righteousness can never be earned. It can only come as a gift from the Lamb of God.



I prefer the words of Jesus Christ:

"Many are called, but few are chosen."



If you don't believe in the God of the bible then we do not have anything to talk about at all, and if you are the sort of person who can alter His words in such a flippant manner without trembling, then either you simply do not have any concept of who He is, or you have never read or heeded the warnings in the bible about the terrible curses that will befall those who add or take away from any of his words.

Well, you've met one now.

I am a Christian who is aware that eggs and rabbits are both symbols of fertility. That they are no longer perceived as such and that their origins have long ago been forgotten by mainstream society, who all just think they're munching on some yummy confectionary, is of no relevance to me. I know that it is in fact a heathen festival whose purpose is to worship a heathen goddess of fertility and welcome in some sort of new cycle, and so does God, and, I assure you, so do the pagans. I would probably be cursed and have God's wrath fall upon me were such a thing to enter my house or cross my lips:

"Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing."

To you, it might be an innocent piece of chocolate. To me, it's cursed.

If God's people could learn to keep away from idols, THAT would be the victory.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=245yfZmaZ9w[/youtube]

By extension I also put this together: http://www.kxmode.com/JW/What-Would-Jes ... Christmas/ If you want more information PM me.

Last edited by kxmode on 14 Apr 2011, 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

It's in the Bible. Feel free to use whatever bible you feel most comfortable with to read the following scriptures:

Jesus celebrating the Passover with his disciples...

(Luke 22:13-15) 13 So they (Peter and John; verse 8) departed and found it (a large upper room; verse 11, 12) just as he (Jesus; verse 8) had said to them, and they got the passover ready. 14 At length when the hour came, he reclined at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with YOU before I suffer;

Jesus established "a special meal"

(Luke 22:19-20) 19 Also, he (Jesus) took a loaf, gave thanks (prayed), broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

(1 Corinthians 11:23-26) 23 For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.

The theme scripture for this year's memorial is John 1:29. It reads "The next day he (John the Baptizer) beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!" I don't know if you knew this but lambs were traditionally used for sacrifices along with other animals in Jewish customs, so when John the Baptizer addressed Jesus as the "Lamb of God" it meant his sacrifice would be much greater. Jehovah's Witnesses commemorate this event annually because Jesus instituted this event while he was celebrating the Passover with his Disciples. Since the Passover was an annual celebration it seems only logical that the memorial of Christ's death would occur annually on the 14th of Nisan; the day Jesus died.

Also, you may read Jesus' final week from the gospels in detail and chronological order from this biblical timeline (it's all scriptures). This timeline is from the February 2011 issue of the Watchtower.

Last edited by kxmode on 14 Apr 2011, 1:20 am, edited 5 times in total.

I thought he died on purim it would make the barabas story make more sense.

I'm not trying to insult anyone's beliefs, but I am trying to get you critically think about what is true. People hate being the victim of lies by their politicians, parents, bosses, and friends. Well, what about their religious leaders?

Nope. Not the Festival of Lots (or the Jews’ deliverance from threatened annihilation in the Persian Empire; Esther 9:20-24). Jesus was in Jerusalem on his last night to celebrate the Passover with his Disciples. He knew he was going to die so he instituted the memorial of his death during the Passover celebration. It's all in the bible. :)

Kind of makes you wonder about other doctrines they teach like hellfire and the trinity.

Take, for example, trinity. Without using a single scripture all someone has to do is look at the Jewish faith and know they believe in ONE God all the way back to Abraham. Not a trinity God; ONE God. The idea of a trinity God is repulsive. Jesus was born a Jew, and grew up in the Jewish faith. He too believed in ONE God; his heavenly Father (his name is the Tetragrammaton יהוה pronounced Jehovah and Yahweh). He observed all the Jewish customs and traditions including the Sabbath, Passover, numerous Festivals, and so forth. On the other hand pagan nations surrounding Israel all worshiped multiple gods including the Triune godhead during Jesus' earthly life. Centuries later after Jesus and the apostles' died the trinity doctrine was established by church leaders in pagan Rome under the direction of Constantine, who was a devout pagan most of his life.

(John 4:24) God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

I don't see how what you're saying bears any relevance to the topic in hand. The word "trinity" is not found in the bible that I recall, but the concept is very clearly taught in 1John 5:7. Anyone who believes that the Bible is the Word of God would have no issues with wondering about the truth of the three persons of God having read that verse. Nor hellfire. There are countless references to hell in the bible. Of course, if you don't believe the bible is true or have never read it, then doubtless you will form your own theories. Hellfire is not a doctrine. It's a reality. If you don't believe hell exists, then what is Jesus even saving you from? (That question only applies if you are a Christian, and not someone who wrongly thinks you can earn your way into heaven by good works).