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Vigilans
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25 Apr 2011, 12:49 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Like the idea the city of Troy never existed?


There is a big difference- the story of Troy was not considered significant in that people changed their lives over it. Additionally it was viewed as simply a story until there were actually discoveries made coinciding with the region of Illion. It is still not even clear that the 'Troy' described by Homer even existed or if it is just a coincidence

Inuyasha wrote:
Scientists are hell-bent on trying to prove the Bible is false


Hardly. I love how a lot of Christians see 'science' as some kind of homogenous anti-Religion movement. It is not the case. Scientists don't go out of their way trying to disprove the Bible, they ask for proof, as do the people who are involved in historical research, who are rarely scientists as you would define them. The burden of evidence is on those making the claims. If evidence appears, historians and anthropologists are the ones to discover it, not necessarily scientists- I don't know why you would assume that. And they aren't working to disprove or prove anything, just to broaden the scope of Human knowledge.

The Bible makes a lot of outlandish claims, if we were to just accept them without evidence for the history books it does a disservice to everybody. If, for example, "Sodom & Gomorrah" were actually discovered, they would be thoroughly excavated to discover the true nature of those two ancient cities, not just automatically assume "oh, here is two long dead cities, they must be the home of the Sodomites and Gamorreans (Star Wars joke there :P )" much as the case with 'Troy', the jury still being out on whether it is actually Troy or just some Bronze-Age city

Think, for example, about the Book of Mormon and its claims for various 'Israelite' North American civilizations- that is in major conflict with actual archaeology and historical fact of both the Americas and the Levant. Should we just accept the Mormon version of North American history? As a non-Mormon, I expect you to say 'No, that is illogical, where is the evidence for the Nephites, or Jaredites, or whatever'. Well, that is how I feel about Biblical claims about history. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not out to disprove anything, I just want proof


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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


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25 Apr 2011, 1:20 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Think, for example, about the Book of Mormon and its claims for various 'Israelite' North American civilizations- that is in major conflict with actual archaeology and historical fact of both the Americas and the Levant. Should we just accept the Mormon version of North American history? As a non-Mormon, I expect you to say 'No, that is illogical, where is the evidence for the Nephites, or Jaredites, or whatever'. Well, that is how I feel about Biblical claims about history. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not out to disprove anything, I just want proof


So the testimonies of the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, Joseph Smith, & the other living Apostles & prophets since the restoration of the Church (from 1830) Christ set up at, are not proof! The prophet Moroni in the book of Moroni (Moroni 10:3-5) in the Book of Mormon stated that proof on the truth of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is how I know that the Book of Mormon is true by getting down my nees & praying about its truth.



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25 Apr 2011, 2:05 pm

cdfox7 wrote:
So the testimonies of the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, Joseph Smith, & the other living Apostles & prophets since the restoration of the Church (from 1830) Christ set up at, are not proof!

Correct. The "testimony of the witnesses" can be shared and considered, but the existence of "testimony of the witnesses" only proves there are alleged witnesses giving testimony. Such is allowed and considered in a court of law, but then a jury still has to be assembled to decide that matter ...

cdfox7 wrote:
The prophet Moroni in the book of Moroni (Moroni 10:3-5) in the Book of Mormon stated that proof on the truth of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Are there any other witnesses to that alleged fact?

cdfox7 wrote:
I know the Book of Mormon is true by getting down my knees & praying about its truth.

So then, you stand with the prophet Moroni as a witness giving testimony now being heard by the remainder of us as a "jury", loosely said. Or, maybe it would be more accurate to say, "The jury is still out ..." on that matter (except within the LDS assembly/ies). In any case, and as you might already well know: There are plenty of people in this world saying it is "by the power of the Holy Ghost" that they happen to know the Book of Mormon as falsehood.

Edit: For some possible consideration here ...

"If he thinks ... in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we ... have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that." ("A.A.", the book, page 95)

Point: The testimony of the witness is only effective toward eventual persuasion when the other person is actually asking or is at least willing to hear it. A certain kind of prophet might speak and say something like "Change, or die", but there would be no explanation unless/until a hearer -- one who actually has ears to hear (as Spirit-called) -- at least asked, "Why?"


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Last edited by leejosepho on 25 Apr 2011, 2:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Vigilans
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25 Apr 2011, 2:20 pm

cdfox7 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:

Think, for example, about the Book of Mormon and its claims for various 'Israelite' North American civilizations- that is in major conflict with actual archaeology and historical fact of both the Americas and the Levant. Should we just accept the Mormon version of North American history? As a non-Mormon, I expect you to say 'No, that is illogical, where is the evidence for the Nephites, or Jaredites, or whatever'. Well, that is how I feel about Biblical claims about history. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not out to disprove anything, I just want proof


So the testimonies of the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, Joseph Smith, & the other living Apostles & prophets since the restoration of the Church (from 1830) Christ set up at, are not proof! The prophet Moroni in the book of Moroni (Moroni 10:3-5) in the Book of Mormon stated that proof on the truth of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is how I know that the Book of Mormon is true by getting down my nees & praying about its truth.


Not to me. Where are all the ruins of the various civilizations claimed by Joseph Smith? I'm not really interested in debating LDS theology, if it makes people happy that's fine, but the attempts at re-writing North American history with fictional Levantine civilizations is highly offensive to me and most other historians as it is a stab at real history and knowledge


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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


cdfox7
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25 Apr 2011, 2:32 pm

leejosepho wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
So the testimonies of the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, Joseph Smith, & the other living Apostles & prophets since the restoration of the Church (from 1830) Christ set up at, are not proof!

Correct. The "testimony of the witnesses" can be shared and considered, but the existence of "testimony of the witnesses" only proves there are alleged witnesses giving testimony. Such is allowed and considered in a court of law, but then a jury still has to be assembled to decide that matter ...
Yes it is up to the jury to decide if the witnesses testimonies are true

leejosepho wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
The prophet Moroni in the book of Moroni (Moroni 10:3-5) in the Book of Mormon stated that proof on the truth of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Are there any other witnesses to that alleged fact?
There is possibility over 14 million living witnesses in the world today to this fact including myself, plus the other key witnesses I listed before.

leejosepho wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
I know the Book of Mormon is true by getting down my knees & praying about its truth.

So then, you stand with the prophet Moroni as a witness giving testimony now being heard by the remainder of us as a "jury", loosely said. Or, maybe it would be more accurate to say, "The jury is still out ..." on that matter (except within the LDS assembly/ies). In any case, and as you might already well know: There are plenty of people in this world saying it is "by the power of the Holy Ghost" that they happen to know the Book of Mormon as falsehood.


I understand that there some people who claim that the Book of Mormon is false, that is there personal opinion. Yes I stand with the prophet Moroni and the other witnesses to the truth of the Book of Mormon & also state that the jury is very welcome to gain there own personal testimony if they choice to. Each member of the jury has the right to weight up the facts & it there only judgement to make regarding the Book of Mormon.



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25 Apr 2011, 2:39 pm

Vigilans wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:

Think, for example, about the Book of Mormon and its claims for various 'Israelite' North American civilizations- that is in major conflict with actual archaeology and historical fact of both the Americas and the Levant. Should we just accept the Mormon version of North American history? As a non-Mormon, I expect you to say 'No, that is illogical, where is the evidence for the Nephites, or Jaredites, or whatever'. Well, that is how I feel about Biblical claims about history. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not out to disprove anything, I just want proof


So the testimonies of the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, Joseph Smith, & the other living Apostles & prophets since the restoration of the Church (from 1830) Christ set up at, are not proof! The prophet Moroni in the book of Moroni (Moroni 10:3-5) in the Book of Mormon stated that proof on the truth of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is how I know that the Book of Mormon is true by getting down my nees & praying about its truth.


Not to me. Where are all the ruins of the various civilizations claimed by Joseph Smith? I'm not really interested in debating LDS theology, if it makes people happy that's fine, but the attempts at re-writing North American history with fictional Levantine civilizations is highly offensive to me and most other historians as it is a stab at real history and knowledge


Only a portion of the plates where translated into what we now have as the Book of Mormon, then the other records become public knowledge then that might make the historians a bit happier.



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25 Apr 2011, 2:59 pm

cdfox7 wrote:

Only a portion of the plates where translated into what we now have as the Book of Mormon, then the other records become public knowledge then that might make the historians a bit happier.


Without the original plates the translations are at best hearsay and most likely fiction by Joseph Smith.

ruveyn



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25 Apr 2011, 3:04 pm

cdfox7 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:

Think, for example, about the Book of Mormon and its claims for various 'Israelite' North American civilizations- that is in major conflict with actual archaeology and historical fact of both the Americas and the Levant. Should we just accept the Mormon version of North American history? As a non-Mormon, I expect you to say 'No, that is illogical, where is the evidence for the Nephites, or Jaredites, or whatever'. Well, that is how I feel about Biblical claims about history. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not out to disprove anything, I just want proof


So the testimonies of the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, Joseph Smith, & the other living Apostles & prophets since the restoration of the Church (from 1830) Christ set up at, are not proof! The prophet Moroni in the book of Moroni (Moroni 10:3-5) in the Book of Mormon stated that proof on the truth of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is how I know that the Book of Mormon is true by getting down my nees & praying about its truth.


Not to me. Where are all the ruins of the various civilizations claimed by Joseph Smith? I'm not really interested in debating LDS theology, if it makes people happy that's fine, but the attempts at re-writing North American history with fictional Levantine civilizations is highly offensive to me and most other historians as it is a stab at real history and knowledge


Only a portion of the plates where translated into what we now have as the Book of Mormon, then the other records become public knowledge then that might make the historians a bit happier.


That still doesn't account for the lack of any physical evidence for the Nephites, Jaredites, Lamenites and Mulekites


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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


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25 Apr 2011, 3:07 pm

Vigilans wrote:

That still doesn't account for the lack of any physical evidence for the Nephites, Jaredites, Lamenites and Mulekites

Not a single great stone city in South America inhabited by Hebrew speaking or writing people has ever been found. the only stone cities have been built by the various indian nations like th Aztec, the Maya and the Inca. These peoples were very advanced and had no direct connection with people from the Middle East.

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25 Apr 2011, 3:11 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Vigilans wrote:

That still doesn't account for the lack of any physical evidence for the Nephites, Jaredites, Lamenites and Mulekites

Not a single great stone city in South America inhabited by Hebrew speaking or writing people has ever been found. the only stone cities have been built by the various indian nations like th Aztec, the Maya and the Inca. These peoples were very advanced and had no direct connection with people from the Middle East.

ruveyn


Exactly. I've even heard some LDS 'archaeologists' try to reconcile the native civilizations with the various fictional ones in the BoM- I see that as a real affront to these civilizations. Its almost like trying to claim natives were incapable of those civilizations, so it must have been some Eurasian people who crossed the Atlantic. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if that went through Joseph Smith's mind when he wrote all that stuff about his American Israelites. Though at the time the Pre-Colombian history of the Americas was not nearly as well known. He probably banked on it staying that way


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Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


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25 Apr 2011, 3:13 pm

ruveyn wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:

Only a portion of the plates where translated into what we now have as the Book of Mormon, then the other records become public knowledge then that might make the historians a bit happier.


Without the original plates the translations are at best hearsay and most likely fiction by Joseph Smith.

ruveyn


That same line of thinking can be used about the lost manuscript of the book of Lehi.



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25 Apr 2011, 3:21 pm

Vigilans wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:

Think, for example, about the Book of Mormon and its claims for various 'Israelite' North American civilizations- that is in major conflict with actual archaeology and historical fact of both the Americas and the Levant. Should we just accept the Mormon version of North American history? As a non-Mormon, I expect you to say 'No, that is illogical, where is the evidence for the Nephites, or Jaredites, or whatever'. Well, that is how I feel about Biblical claims about history. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not out to disprove anything, I just want proof


So the testimonies of the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, Joseph Smith, & the other living Apostles & prophets since the restoration of the Church (from 1830) Christ set up at, are not proof! The prophet Moroni in the book of Moroni (Moroni 10:3-5) in the Book of Mormon stated that proof on the truth of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is how I know that the Book of Mormon is true by getting down my nees & praying about its truth.


Not to me. Where are all the ruins of the various civilizations claimed by Joseph Smith? I'm not really interested in debating LDS theology, if it makes people happy that's fine, but the attempts at re-writing North American history with fictional Levantine civilizations is highly offensive to me and most other historians as it is a stab at real history and knowledge


Only a portion of the plates where translated into what we now have as the Book of Mormon, then the other records become public knowledge then that might make the historians a bit happier.


That still doesn't account for the lack of any physical evidence for the Nephites, Jaredites, Lamenites and Mulekites


Not bad for someone who as stated that they have no wish to debate LDS theology, LDS theology dones come into this when your talking about history & archaeology. OK lets change the subject as we'll not going to agree on this issue.



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25 Apr 2011, 3:27 pm

cdfox7 wrote:
There is possibility over 14 million living witnesses in the world today to this fact including myself, plus the other key witnesses I listed before.

Do you know of any outside the LDS assembly/ies?

cdfox7 wrote:
I understand that there some people who claim that the Book of Mormon is false, that is there personal opinion.

Here is what I had said: "There are [many] people in this world saying it is 'by the power of the Holy Ghost' -- just as you say -- they know the Book of Mormon as falsehood."

So, and rhetorically: Who/when/how/where might all the remainder of us know who is actually right about that?

In response, I would say "Go read and pray for yourself in order to find out for yourself ...", but then what if someone does that and comes back with a different report? Who/when/how/where shall we prove what alleged "Spirit/spirit" is actually speaking?

Point: If you want to try to be helpful to others, scrap the dogma and meet them at their points of need and answer their questions (and not the ones in the LDS "study guides" or whatever). :wink:


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I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


Last edited by leejosepho on 25 Apr 2011, 3:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Vigilans
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25 Apr 2011, 3:28 pm

cdfox7 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:

Think, for example, about the Book of Mormon and its claims for various 'Israelite' North American civilizations- that is in major conflict with actual archaeology and historical fact of both the Americas and the Levant. Should we just accept the Mormon version of North American history? As a non-Mormon, I expect you to say 'No, that is illogical, where is the evidence for the Nephites, or Jaredites, or whatever'. Well, that is how I feel about Biblical claims about history. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not out to disprove anything, I just want proof


So the testimonies of the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, Joseph Smith, & the other living Apostles & prophets since the restoration of the Church (from 1830) Christ set up at, are not proof! The prophet Moroni in the book of Moroni (Moroni 10:3-5) in the Book of Mormon stated that proof on the truth of the Book of Mormon comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is how I know that the Book of Mormon is true by getting down my nees & praying about its truth.


Not to me. Where are all the ruins of the various civilizations claimed by Joseph Smith? I'm not really interested in debating LDS theology, if it makes people happy that's fine, but the attempts at re-writing North American history with fictional Levantine civilizations is highly offensive to me and most other historians as it is a stab at real history and knowledge


Only a portion of the plates where translated into what we now have as the Book of Mormon, then the other records become public knowledge then that might make the historians a bit happier.


That still doesn't account for the lack of any physical evidence for the Nephites, Jaredites, Lamenites and Mulekites


Not bad for someone who as stated that they have no wish to debate LDS theology, LDS theology dones come into this when your talking about history & archaeology. OK lets change the subject as we'll not going to agree on this issue.


:P This whole line of discussion is off topic- but I guess you're right, it is LDS theology from your view, but I see it as pseudo-history. Like I said though, if it makes people happy, that's fine, but virtually all anthropologists and historians are against the idea that Israelites were in the Americas- there is no archaeological evidence, no artifacts, no bones with the genetic markers of Middle-Easterners, no Middle-Eastern plants and animals transplanted (which they would have needed to take with them on such an arduous ocean journey)... Its a long list of things that go against the idea. But I accept your suggestion that we let this go back on topic


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Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


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25 Apr 2011, 3:32 pm

The religion of the Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ was the scientology of its day. It was a fictional concoction stirred up in the imagination of Joseph Smith in Palmyra N.Y. It started as a cult and manage to outlives its founders so it became a Religion. It was made up out of whole cloth from the git-go. And it was not the first time.

Consider Abraham of Mesopotomia who dreamed up the cult of the One God. He sold it to herders and beduins and it caught on. It spread through his sons by several women and managed to outlive its founders . This Cult of Abraham become Judaism, Islam and later Christianity.

ruveyn



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25 Apr 2011, 3:47 pm

leejosepho wrote:
cdfox7 wrote:
There is possibility over 14 million living witnesses in the world today to this fact including myself, plus the other key witnesses I listed before.

Do you know of any outside the LDS assembly/ies?


cdfox7 wrote:
I understand that there some people who claim that the Book of Mormon is false, that is there personal opinion.

Here is what I had said: "There are [many] people in this world saying it is 'by the power of the Holy Ghost' -- just as you say -- they know the Book of Mormon as falsehood."

So, and rhetorically: Who/when/how/where might all the remainder of us know who is actually right about that?

In response, I would say "Go read and pray for yourself in order to find out for yourself ...", but then what if someone does that and comes back with a different report? Who/when/how/where shall we prove what alleged "Spirit/spirit" is actually speaking?

Point: If you want to try to be helpful to others, scrap the dogma and meet them at their points of need and answer their questions (and not the ones in the LDS "study guides" or whatever). :wink:


If by official LDS assembly/ies, myself & a less active member of my family when she didn't go out to church (now she is back at church) also I know of few other less active friends that still believe in the Book of Mormon.

Each person is at different levels of spirituality when a person as at the right time & right level then they might know who is right.
Personally is the thoughts & feelings one gets while reading the Book of Mormon that have key role in judging the text. I have personal only hear of a hand full of people who had bad feelings about the book tho in them cases they only read part of it.