Are you a believer?

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ConfusedDude
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15 May 2011, 3:43 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

ConfusedDude wrote:

Ok. You know what? Forget that I said "Atheist People Have To Explain Themselves". All I want to know is that if you believe in Him, good, If you don't, okay I understand.

"Boy, when I put 'Atheist People Have To Explain Themselves', I was thinking 'Whoa! This is embarrassing! What was I thinking?! I shouldn't have put that!"

"My sincerest apologies."

It's okay, man. Really.

The easiest way to understand this is to try to absorb in your mind one simple fact.

It is programmed very deeply into your firmware that your thoughts and the world around you are two entirely different aspects of reality. It is almost reflexive for you to ask, "when I die, where do I go from there?"

On the other hand, some people have it planted very deeply in their minds that their thoughts and feelings can be explained adequately according to the same matter and energy that their automobiles are built out of. This is just as deeply developed in their minds as your concept that you have an immortal soul.

Now, some atheists have a great deal of difficulty understanding how your concept of a "soul" can be so profoundly imbedded in your mind, but some of us are imainative enough to understand the point that, in your world, it is stark reality.

Another important thing to acknowledge is that you, unlike most atheists, believe that your consciousness is immortal. There is no concept in your mind that your consciousness will cease to exist. In fact, when you attempt to embrace the concept of "oblivion," you are still trapped in the idea, "well, what then?"

To the atheist, we almost reflexively accept the fact that our consciousness is a bodily function like any other. Our purview is that, when our bodies can no longer carry out this function, thought is something that will no longer take place.

Believe me, I know this is weird for you. However, as radical as the concept might be to you, understanding atheists requires you to imagine seeing a bad mood in a similar light to how you would view a bad case of indigestion. The dependence of our thoughts on the functions of our bodies is really that real in our minds.

In fact, atheists find these ideas to be so obvious that sometimes they can grow impatient with religious people like yourself. To them, it is a failure to see something that is readily obvious. In fact, some atheists cannot even imagine the concept that their thoughts are actually a function that is separate and apart from their bodies.

It simply follows suit from there that, if consciousness is no more than a function of matter and energy, the conception of our universe needn't have had at its origin a "mind" to have conceived it. The very concept that human thought is a product of inanimate matter gives rise to the concept that the creative force behind the cosmos can be reduced to moving parts.

It is simply the natural "comfort zone" of the atheist to see the universe in terms of "gears and sprockets." This doesn't mean that you are obligated to have the same comfort zone in your own thoughts, but I think it would help you a great deal to understand that these concepts of the world really can be that deeply ingrained in those of us who are atheistical or otherwise "non-religious."

Does that help?

Um...

yes. Thank you, man.

BurntOutMom
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15 May 2011, 3:48 pm

I believe in a god... but not the Christian version.. or any other version that I've found.

I believe in a god because I feel "something", but I can acknowledge that I have no proof whatsoever and there could be a completely biological reason for feeling this "something".

Therefore, I could be completely wrong, either way.

I am always open to suggestions and possibilities.

Philologos
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15 May 2011, 4:18 pm

Bethie, he said, ever so graciously waving his tail:

1. No divine entity I have any dealings with is [except when incarnate for a special mission] gendered or equipped with nose, ankles, toes, horns, tail or any other body parts. If any theist pertaining to Judaism, Christianity, or Islam [as those terms are generally and properly understood] has claimed that the Creator has any kind of genitalia you have my full endorsement of your spitting in his face.

2. Logic fail is ir? If you do not want to believe in God, there is no point anybody trying to convince you. I do not, by words or evidence, convince you you have a body. If you DO want to believe in God - or are sincerely interested in finding out if there is such a thing - there is little point asking me or 91 or anyone else. I cannot tell you what pork tongue tastes like or what touching a nail file feels like to me - you got to go to the source. It is not"believe enough to ask" - it is "have enough interest to make the experiment".

3. If I tell you, "The two basic verbal constructions in the major Semitic languages relate to the conjugations of Berber, differentiated on the basis of stress placement in the early languages" [I DO now tell you that, by the way]. You trust empirical evidence, say you. Fine. You do not yourself [I am betting, I could be wrong] have in hand any empirical evidence bearing on the point from your own researches.

Do you
A. Believe me because you have reason to expect I am the kind would not assert that without evidence.

B. Suspend judgement because you have not personally vetted the evidence.

C. Say what a fool you are to believe in a Semitic Berber connectio. How could stress have anything to do with anything?

JakobVirgil
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15 May 2011, 5:14 pm

Philologos wrote:

what then is the purpose or importance of the resurrection?
if spirit is all that matters why does it matter that Jesus is risen?
Xtianity even with its two centuries of platonic white-wash is at its core,
at its most authentic is the religion of blood and flesh
the pervert from Hippo so was ashamed of.

What you say is true of Judaism and Islam but the God of the Xtians is a Man.

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Philologos
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15 May 2011, 7:47 pm

Ah, mon vieux, you have not I imagine spent as much time on Christology and sci fi as I have. At least almost for sure not trhe RIGHT sci fi.

I do NOT speak for all who assert Jesus. The god of THIS mshihoyo HAS BEEN a male Homo sapiens. Intriguingly, the perfective aspect is one of the few elements of human verbal systems that can operate in and out of time.

Do NOT ask me to get too specific on the resurrection. Chicken and egg - death and resurrection - different times one or the other has been played up. I tend not too dig too deep into mystery and paradox - you can't simplify divinity enough to fit into this head or that book.

But the real question is not the resurrection - it is the span from Deposition through Harrowing of Hell PAST Resurrection to Ascension. The Noli me tangere thing - WHAT is that about? Taking nine months for the incarnation process, sure. But why not straight back to base immediately after corporeal death?

Certain people get all haha hoho when some of us don't have all the answers.

But if one is not God and has not been given all the facts BY God, best you can do is make God up - and he;ssupposed to be making us up. I keep my theory close to the ground.

Philologos
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15 May 2011, 11:24 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Philologos wrote:

Bethie - do you WANT to be convinced God exists? Then go to the source, ask him difrectly.

If you do NOT want to be convinced, why play "say something so I can ridicule it"?

What source exactly?

Can't she have the right to not believe due to lack of any conclusive evidence?

Duh.

Can't she have the right? Don't be silly. She has an OBLIGATION not to believe without conclusive evidence. Somebody says, Oh, today I will believe the moon is a wooden spoon. What is that? If you have no evidence I exist, don't believe in me. I do not believe in KuSek, sous-shaman of Kamalonga, precisely because I have no evidence. Show me his entry in the Kamalonga phomebook, I MIGHT believe, if I believed you and the phone book.

What I SAID was, "Do not ask X to prove God. If you want to believe, God might provide evidence. If you have no evidence, and do not plan to receive evidence, do not ask people to GIVE evidence so as to say, Oh, how stupid. If you want to call me stupid, do it and don't waste my time."

leejosepho
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15 May 2011, 11:39 pm

Philologos wrote:

... "Do not ask X to prove God. If you want to believe, God might provide evidence. If you have no evidence, and do not plan to receive evidence, do not ask people to GIVE evidence so as to say, Oh, how stupid. If you want to call me stupid, do it and don't waste my time."

Wanna know what I think?

No matter, I will tell you anyway ...

I think many people who "ask people to GIVE evidence so as to say, 'Oh, how stupid' are actually doing so while dearly hoping to somehow eventually becoming convinced!

There is no such thing as a non-believer, yet many people do put a lot of effort into trying like 'ell to not believe!

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