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Albert Einstein's Belief in Pantheism

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ValentineWiggin
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19 May 2011, 9:34 pm

Einstein might have been a pantheist, or he might have believed in Spinoza's god, but it is impossible to assert both:

"...as to the view of certain people that I identify god with nature (taken as a kind of mass or corporeal matter), they are quite mistaken"- Baruch Spinoza, letter to Henry Oldenburg

I agree that Spinoza's views are often mis-characterized, and that Martial Gueroult's term "panentheism" is more accurate in describing him than pantheism.



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19 May 2011, 9:36 pm

trappedinhell wrote:
The universe is like a drug to me.



lolwut



ValentineWiggin
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19 May 2011, 9:39 pm

dionysian wrote:
arthead wrote:
"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness." - ( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

Yes, a beautiful quote. This is the difference between pantheism, and atheism. That's why I identify as a pantheist...


So um. I think sh*t's pretty cool, too.

Doesn't change that I'm atheist- the whole thing reeks of making up labels to feel special.



dionysian
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19 May 2011, 9:44 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
dionysian wrote:
arthead wrote:
"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness." - ( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

Yes, a beautiful quote. This is the difference between pantheism, and atheism. That's why I identify as a pantheist...


So um. I think sh*t's pretty cool, too.

Doesn't change that I'm atheist- the whole thing reeks of making up labels to feel special.

I first got term from Santayana, who is one of my favorite philosophers.



Oodain
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19 May 2011, 9:47 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
dionysian wrote:
arthead wrote:
"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness." - ( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

Yes, a beautiful quote. This is the difference between pantheism, and atheism. That's why I identify as a pantheist...


So um. I think sh*t's pretty cool, too.

Doesn't change that I'm atheist- the whole thing reeks of making up labels to feel special.


gotta agree with that, though i like the idea (started using it hours ago, literally, see if it sticks)

as for labels, we as human beings need them, no need to shun the concept alltogether, we as humans only need to regulate how we relate to these labels and how important we make them.


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19 May 2011, 10:05 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
dionysian wrote:
arthead wrote:
"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness." - ( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

Yes, a beautiful quote. This is the difference between pantheism, and atheism. That's why I identify as a pantheist...


So um. I think sh*t's pretty cool, too.

Doesn't change that I'm atheist- the whole thing reeks of making up labels to feel special.

It's a more descriptive term. It conveys more information. It's a matter of efficiency.



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19 May 2011, 10:26 pm

dionysian wrote:
It's a more descriptive term. It conveys more information. It's a matter of efficiency.

The problem is that it really isn't more helpful. Pantheism is a religious doctrine that tends to suggest that the universe is conscious, and/or that it interacts with us in a purpose-driven and intelligible manner. I mean, the term literally means that everything is God, which..... doesn't make sense if one isn't holding to everything having many divine characteristics. Saying that you are in awe of the universe is really better with another term WITHOUT the religious baggage to it.



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19 May 2011, 10:32 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
dionysian wrote:
It's a more descriptive term. It conveys more information. It's a matter of efficiency.

The problem is that it really isn't more helpful. Pantheism is a religious doctrine that tends to suggest that the universe is conscious, and/or that it interacts with us in a purpose-driven and intelligible manner. I mean, the term literally means that everything is God, which..... doesn't make sense if one isn't holding to everything having many divine characteristics. Saying that you are in awe of the universe is really better with another term WITHOUT the religious baggage to it.


It's just a word, my friend. YOU are the one with baggage.

George Santayana wrote:
Fanaticism consists of redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim.



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19 May 2011, 10:39 pm

dionysian wrote:
It's just a word, my friend. YOU are the one with baggage.

George Santayana wrote:
Fanaticism consists of redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim.

........ No, the word has baggage. I mean, seriously, I posted at the beginning of this thread an interview with a pantheist philosopher. What he's referring to is beyond the mere claim "reality seems cool!". You're not helping things if you make me think of that guy, rather than making me think of what you want to convey.

Everything is "just words", the problem is that language used in this manner can be a source of confusion. When I entered the thread, I immediately picked up on the whole notion "the universe is God according to what these people say about Einstein". Now, sometimes this is fine if two meanings have some real connection. The "I think the universe is amazing" group, and the "I worship the universe because it is an actual conscious being" group are going in very different directions here though,. Also, "pantheism", in terms of what you present it, is just a form of atheism. So, trying to avoid the label "atheist" with "pantheist" is just going to confuse the matter, as then we're justified in thinking you worship the cosmos as an intelligent being.



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19 May 2011, 10:50 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
When I entered the thread, I immediately picked up on the whole notion "the universe is God according to what these people say about Einstein".

Nobody, or at least I didn't imply anything of the sort... I was pointing out his own words. Direct quotes.
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Also, "pantheism", in terms of what you present it, is just a form of atheism. So, trying to avoid the label "atheist" with "pantheist" is just going to confuse the matter, as then we're justified in thinking you worship the cosmos as an intelligent being.

You can continue to misinterpret me in whatever ways you choose. I am fine with that.



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19 May 2011, 10:55 pm

dionysian wrote:
Nobody, or at least I didn't imply anything of the sort... I was pointing out his own words. Direct quotes.

The thread is labeled "Einstein's belief in pantheism.
Quote:
You can continue to misinterpret me in whatever ways you choose. I am fine with that.

Except that I am not. You're being obtuse. I know what "pantheism" means. I even posted an actual literal pantheist scholar in an interview on this thread. He's not an atheist at all. He's a theist who believes the universe is God. Saying that if you and he accept the same label an where pantheism means "everything is God", that you are in some sense expressing that you are a theist who believes the universe is God, is not some aggressive misinterpretation. It's not my fault if you don't make yourself clear, or if you, in the process of trying to provoke a reaction, present yourself in a manner that makes your comments less clear.



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19 May 2011, 11:10 pm

Dionysian, just stop it. While people, like you, who think of themselves as philosophical theologians may view obscurantism as a sign of intellect, it really isn't. You'r pathetically unclear and pull "gottcha" moments out of your ass everytime someone misreads your piss-poorly phrased statemetns.


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19 May 2011, 11:48 pm

dionysian wrote:
On Atheism (link)

Albert MF'ing Einstein wrote:
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer.


You must have provided the wrong link- in the quotes included here, he indicts only strong/hard atheists, not atheism, proper,
and the people who proclaimed themselves Freethinkers and yet weren't (in his view) appropriately-humble about the inadequacy of the human mind to comprehend all.



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19 May 2011, 11:57 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
dionysian wrote:
On Atheism (link)

Albert MF'ing Einstein wrote:
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer.


You must have provided the wrong link- in the quotes included here, he indicts only strong/hard atheists, not atheism, proper,
and the people who proclaimed themselves Freethinkers and yet weren't (in his view) appropriately-humble about the inadequacy of the human mind to comprehend all.

All along the left hand side of that page are links to more of his thinking on spiritual/religious matters...



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19 May 2011, 11:59 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
dionysian wrote:
On Atheism (link)

Albert MF'ing Einstein wrote:
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer.


You must have provided the wrong link- in the quotes included here, he indicts only strong/hard atheists, not atheism, proper,
and the people who proclaimed themselves Freethinkers and yet weren't (in his view) appropriately-humble about the inadequacy of the human mind to comprehend all.

Why would he indict atheism proper, as you put it?



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20 May 2011, 12:01 am

dionysian wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
dionysian wrote:
On Atheism (link)

Albert MF'ing Einstein wrote:
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer.


You must have provided the wrong link- in the quotes included here, he indicts only strong/hard atheists, not atheism, proper,
and the people who proclaimed themselves Freethinkers and yet weren't (in his view) appropriately-humble about the inadequacy of the human mind to comprehend all.

Why would he indict atheism proper, as you put it?


Probably because of the comment you posted, and the link you provided being entitled "On Atheism"- confused me.

It really would appear you are deliberately trying to mislead, actually.

Since it links to page indicting one specific type of Atheism, then the link title should not read "On Atheism".