Abortion and Original Sin
MarketAndChurch
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Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
11 Jun 2011, 6:37 pm
Orwell wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Adam might have "sinned" - if you hate him for denying YOU the possibility of living forever - but the repercussions of his so-called "sin" were not punishment. How was what he did a sin btw? The torah never said that they were punished for their action... it just says that God gave them two trees to chose from and each had a consequence. The consequence of knowledge and a meaningful life is pain(ultimately suffering) and death.
We would rather be fully alive and know it all (awareness) then just be a highly intelligent animal with the possibility of immortality by constantly eating from the tree of life... we opted for the former and lead a richer existence because of it. Knowledge of Good and Evil just means to know everything and know life, and that is what we opted for.
If anything, you should be thanking the character we know as Adam because death makes life meaningful; the innocent don't know anything from death.
We would rather be fully alive and know it all (awareness) then just be a highly intelligent animal with the possibility of immortality by constantly eating from the tree of life... we opted for the former and lead a richer existence because of it. Knowledge of Good and Evil just means to know everything and know life, and that is what we opted for.
If anything, you should be thanking the character we know as Adam because death makes life meaningful; the innocent don't know anything from death.
Um... one of the two of us must be using a rather creative translation of Genesis, because that's definitely not what it says in my Bible. At all. I would be willing to bet that you are the one with an erroneous text.
that's fine, we can do it line-by-line. Post up both your translation and your understanding of it.
_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.
11 Jun 2011, 6:53 pm
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?
Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.
Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.
The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.
I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?
most of the principles in the torah are made for the benefit of mankind during this lifetime.
I believe the main purpose of Heaven and Hell is for the sake of ethics: that we behave ethically during this lifetime.
Whereas most cultures in the near-east and the far-east were obsessed with the next, the torah's preoccupation was with this life-time. My own beliefs are that the innocent and those whose sum-totality of their lives have been ethical and good (or haven't murdered, engaged in child sacrifice, or anything else that the Torah finds repulsive) will have ultimate reward in the next lifetime. Be it an atheist, self-described pagans, hindu's, christians, muslims, agnostics, etc.
Heaven and Hell are not as fleshed out in the torah as in the new testament, which I am partially theologically illiterate in despite growing up a christian. Maybe a theologically literate christian can chime in.
I hope you don't take this as insult but your Xtianity is quite progressive Have you read American Religion?
by my favorite Agnostic Gnostic Jew Harold Blume?
I'll check it out - I am not Christian btw as I don't practice it religiously and don't care much about the trinity or the authenticity of Christ being the messiah. I am just a theist now-a-days who prescribes to most judeo-christian values, and if I were to join any religion, it would be Judaism.
read "Jesus and Yahweh" then although with your semi-mormon background "American Religion" would still be my suggestion.
Everybody in the creative arts should read his 74 book "the anxiety of influence".
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
11 Jun 2011, 7:03 pm
Let us break in here - a little one sided, atheists mostly mutually self-gratifying.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
11 Jun 2011, 7:07 pm
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Orwell wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Adam might have "sinned" - if you hate him for denying YOU the possibility of living forever - but the repercussions of his so-called "sin" were not punishment. How was what he did a sin btw? The torah never said that they were punished for their action... it just says that God gave them two trees to chose from and each had a consequence. The consequence of knowledge and a meaningful life is pain(ultimately suffering) and death.
We would rather be fully alive and know it all (awareness) then just be a highly intelligent animal with the possibility of immortality by constantly eating from the tree of life... we opted for the former and lead a richer existence because of it. Knowledge of Good and Evil just means to know everything and know life, and that is what we opted for.
If anything, you should be thanking the character we know as Adam because death makes life meaningful; the innocent don't know anything from death.
We would rather be fully alive and know it all (awareness) then just be a highly intelligent animal with the possibility of immortality by constantly eating from the tree of life... we opted for the former and lead a richer existence because of it. Knowledge of Good and Evil just means to know everything and know life, and that is what we opted for.
If anything, you should be thanking the character we know as Adam because death makes life meaningful; the innocent don't know anything from death.
Um... one of the two of us must be using a rather creative translation of Genesis, because that's definitely not what it says in my Bible. At all. I would be willing to bet that you are the one with an erroneous text.
that's fine, we can do it line-by-line. Post up both your translation and your understanding of it.
Take literally any English translation in common use. I have a copy of the NRSV, which is the translation used by most Presbyterians. The KJV, RSV, NASB, NIV, and any other translation I can think of are the same in all substantive points here.
Genesis 2:16-17: And the Lord God commanded the man, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
So we clearly have a prohibition on eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and specific consequences for that sinful action. Later the serpent convinces Eve and Adam to eat of that tree, and they realize they are naked. God comes looking for them:
Genesis 3:11: [God] said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
So, again, it's pretty clear that God had told them not to eat from that tree- they were not given a choice, "Eat from this tree or from that tree." They were told "This tree is off limits." Verses 14-19 of chapter 3 are God cursing the serpent, the woman, and the man for their actions. Clearly that is a punishment for disobeying God, not the inherent consequences of a freely offered choice. Verses 22-24 are God kicking them out of the garden of Eden to prevent them from attaining immortality along with knowledge.
I mean... there is absolutely nothing in the text I have sitting in front of me that could possibly be misread to justify your interpretation. Does your text say something completely different? What translation are you using?
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Last edited by Orwell on 11 Jun 2011, 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
11 Jun 2011, 7:07 pm
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?
Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.
Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.
The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.
I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?
If the unborn go to heaven, exactly what is the bad thing for them about abortion?
Because what makes the next lifetime in any sense meaningful, important or relevant is this lifetime.
Abortion deny's one the chance to live in this life.
What about miscarriages? Is God making souls live irrelevant, meaningless, unimportant lives just for the jiggles?
_________________
.
11 Jun 2011, 7:28 pm
Philologos wrote:
Let us break in here - a little one sided, atheists mostly mutually self-gratifying.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
So under your definition are the unborn born free from sin?
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
11 Jun 2011, 7:38 pm
JakobVirgil wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Let us break in here - a little one sided, atheists mostly mutually self-gratifying.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
So under your definition are the unborn born free from sin?
I suppose that if the unborn are not considered human, then they would be free of sin, as tapeworms are free of sin.
If the unborn are considered human, then they inherit their parents' sin, and their ancestors' back to Eve.
11 Jun 2011, 7:44 pm
pandabear wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Let us break in here - a little one sided, atheists mostly mutually self-gratifying.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
So under your definition are the unborn born free from sin?
I suppose that if the unborn are not considered human, then they would be free of sin, as tapeworms are free of sin.
If the unborn are considered human, then they inherit their parents' sin, and their ancestors' back to Eve.
The might inherit the sin, but that doesn't mean they are held accountable.
11 Jun 2011, 7:49 pm
I reject original sin as repugnant.
I think babies are born innocent.
cuz they just barely got the pneuma blown into them.
and have not had a chance to sin yet.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
11 Jun 2011, 9:11 pm
pandabear wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Let us break in here - a little one sided, atheists mostly mutually self-gratifying.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
So under your definition are the unborn born free from sin?
I suppose that if the unborn are not considered human, then they would be free of sin, as tapeworms are free of sin.
If the unborn are considered human, then they inherit their parents' sin, and their ancestors' back to Eve.
God's instruction not to eat of the tree of knowledge were given to Adam, she heard it second hand, and her understanding of God's instructions as showcased in her interaction with the serpent shows this to be the case. It goes back to Adam
_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.
Oodain
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Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
11 Jun 2011, 9:13 pm
Philologos wrote:
That which has the DNA of a human being is a human being.
If alive it is a live human
If dead it is a human corpse.
If unborn it is an unborn human.
If undead it is a human vampire.
If alive it is a live human
If dead it is a human corpse.
If unborn it is an unborn human.
If undead it is a human vampire.
dude, you totally forgot zombies.
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
MarketAndChurch
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Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
11 Jun 2011, 9:20 pm
Vexcalibur wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?
Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.
Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.
The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.
I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?
If the unborn go to heaven, exactly what is the bad thing for them about abortion?
Because what makes the next lifetime in any sense meaningful, important or relevant is this lifetime.
Abortion deny's one the chance to live in this life.
What about miscarriages? Is God making souls live irrelevant, meaningless, unimportant lives just for the jiggles?
thats only if you think that God is very active in our lives - I for he most part don't. He made a natural world that abides by natural laws. Since cells metastasize into cancer equally between theist and non-theist alike, rules of the natural world and luck/chance are determinative. A person's faith doesn't safeguard them against phenomena.
He is not there to be our celestial butler or jiggle input to make your life great or miserable. That is for you to do or work around - with or without the limitations that the genetic lottery or chance/luck have endowed you have.
_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.
11 Jun 2011, 9:34 pm
MarketAndChurch wrote:
pandabear wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Let us break in here - a little one sided, atheists mostly mutually self-gratifying.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
So under your definition are the unborn born free from sin?
I suppose that if the unborn are not considered human, then they would be free of sin, as tapeworms are free of sin.
If the unborn are considered human, then they inherit their parents' sin, and their ancestors' back to Eve.
God's instruction not to eat of the tree of knowledge were given to Adam, she heard it second hand, and her understanding of God's instructions as showcased in her interaction with the serpent shows this to be the case. It goes back to Adam
Then why does everyone blame Eve? Then it's really Adam's fault!
11 Jun 2011, 9:35 pm
Inuyasha wrote:
pandabear wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Let us break in here - a little one sided, atheists mostly mutually self-gratifying.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
Just a LINGUISTIC insight, no need to waste good theology.
1. All men [that is Menschen, of course] are sinners. You do not need theology for that. Any of us being honest with himself has broken a list of laws and taboos long enough to go on with. Everybody has awareness of bad and nasty and shameful things done said though - even before counting the omissions.
2. So - is there such a thing as an innocent man? Yes. I am innocent of many things. NOT every wrong shameful blameful sinful thing will take you to court. Or get you in trouble with your loved ones.
3. Even by its neglected etymology - innocent = not harmdoing, as in innocuous - INNOCENT does not mean free from sin. I am - sinner though I am - an innocent man with no reason to far the sight og the police pulling into the drive or my wife reading my emails. But I have done far more harm even in the past week than an unborn child.
4, One more time - repeat after me - INNOCENT DOES NOT MEAN FREE FROIM SIN.
So under your definition are the unborn born free from sin?
I suppose that if the unborn are not considered human, then they would be free of sin, as tapeworms are free of sin.
If the unborn are considered human, then they inherit their parents' sin, and their ancestors' back to Eve.
The might inherit the sin, but that doesn't mean they are held accountable.
Oh, they're held accountable all right. It's the lake of fire and sulfur for them. Don't you worry about a thing. Ever-lasting torment, yet they won't know what hit them, having never had the privilege of attending bible school.
Oodain
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Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
11 Jun 2011, 9:56 pm
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?
Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.
Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.
The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.
I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?
If the unborn go to heaven, exactly what is the bad thing for them about abortion?
Because what makes the next lifetime in any sense meaningful, important or relevant is this lifetime.
Abortion deny's one the chance to live in this life.
What about miscarriages? Is God making souls live irrelevant, meaningless, unimportant lives just for the jiggles?
thats only if you think that God is very active in our lives - I for he most part don't. He made a natural world that abides by natural laws. Since cells metastasize into cancer equally between theist and non-theist alike, rules of the natural world and luck/chance are determinative. A person's faith doesn't safeguard them against phenomena.
He is not there to be our celestial butler or jiggle input to make your life great or miserable. That is for you to do or work around - with or without the limitations that the genetic lottery or chance/luck have endowed you have.
but if he really isnt that involved isnt it possible that any previous involvement might have been fabricated to a large extent by humans?
maybe he simply "got the ball rolling",
this is one of the issues with religion, one can find such diverse knowledge, philosophy and wisdom if one looks alternatively on these religions, yet religions form large groups of "devout" worshippers that end up ignoring these wisdoms in the name of dogma, i can imagine a christianity that would bring mostly good into the world but it is a far cry from any organization i have heard of today.
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//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
