Religion needs to stay out of sexual ethics

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blauSamstag
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29 Jun 2011, 12:28 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
I feel really sorry for gay people who feel forced into heterosexual marriage. I would imagine it's disgusting for them, unless they're somewhat bi-sexual.


The hardest part must be all the dishonesty and betrayal.

I can't imagine how a loving diety would prefer that.



Inuyasha
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29 Jun 2011, 5:52 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
1. Most religions are against Gay Marriage and Prostitution.

2. Ethics is a matter of religious viewpoints, so actually religion should not stay out of an ethical debate.


I find it interesting that most religions are against prostitution when it seems to be tolerated throughout the bible.

The idea that i need a carrot and stick to be a good person is preposterous. I could never believe in a supreme diety who needs to manipulate his children with fear and rewards.


It wasn't approved of in the bible, just it wasn't something warranting a death sentence either.



pandabear
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29 Jun 2011, 6:14 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
1. Most religions are against Gay Marriage and Prostitution.

2. Ethics is a matter of religious viewpoints, so actually religion should not stay out of an ethical debate.


I find it interesting that most religions are against prostitution when it seems to be tolerated throughout the bible.

The idea that i need a carrot and stick to be a good person is preposterous. I could never believe in a supreme diety who needs to manipulate his children with fear and rewards.


It wasn't approved of in the bible, just it wasn't something warranting a death sentence either.


The Bible does set the price of hiring a prostitute to be equal to the price of a loaf of bread.



Inuyasha
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29 Jun 2011, 6:19 pm

pandabear wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
1. Most religions are against Gay Marriage and Prostitution.

2. Ethics is a matter of religious viewpoints, so actually religion should not stay out of an ethical debate.


I find it interesting that most religions are against prostitution when it seems to be tolerated throughout the bible.

The idea that i need a carrot and stick to be a good person is preposterous. I could never believe in a supreme diety who needs to manipulate his children with fear and rewards.


It wasn't approved of in the bible, just it wasn't something warranting a death sentence either.


The Bible does set the price of hiring a prostitute to be equal to the price of a loaf of bread.


I wonder what Bible you are reading.



pandabear
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29 Jun 2011, 6:22 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
1. Most religions are against Gay Marriage and Prostitution.

2. Ethics is a matter of religious viewpoints, so actually religion should not stay out of an ethical debate.


I find it interesting that most religions are against prostitution when it seems to be tolerated throughout the bible.

The idea that i need a carrot and stick to be a good person is preposterous. I could never believe in a supreme diety who needs to manipulate his children with fear and rewards.


It wasn't approved of in the bible, just it wasn't something warranting a death sentence either.


The Bible does set the price of hiring a prostitute to be equal to the price of a loaf of bread.


I wonder what Bible you are reading.


Proverbs 6:26.



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30 Jun 2011, 9:07 am

The Bible isn't setting the price in that verse. It is only commenting on the price.
It is a verse discouraging men from visiting prostitutes.



Fnord
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30 Jun 2011, 9:36 pm

Ethical behavior does not arise from religion.

"... behavior we now consider ethical has been selected by the evolutionary process to be beneficial to society as a whole. It is a corollary to this that societies whose population acts unethically will either collapse, or at least be noticeably weaker than their neighbors." -- The Origin of Ethical Behavior

Therefor, it is safe to conclude that religionists can not claim with any certainty to be any more ethical than Atheists. Further, the evolutionary origins of ethical behavior preclude any religious rules governing sexuality or sexual relations. After all, sex evolved long before humans did, and humans invented religion!

(Religious Ethics ... now there is a contradiction of terms!)



Philologos
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01 Jul 2011, 1:05 am

Fnord, response not worth the wear and tear on fingers, but I would be interested to hear what exactly you are including as ethics.



pandabear
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01 Jul 2011, 7:26 am

YippySkippy wrote:
The Bible isn't setting the price in that verse. It is only commenting on the price.
It is a verse discouraging men from visiting prostitutes.


No it isn't. That whole section is geared at discouraging men from committing adultery with other men's wives, and this verse promotes prostitution as a much cheaper and less risky alternative.



Philologos
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01 Jul 2011, 7:44 am

pandabear wrote:
No it isn't. That whole section is geared at discouraging men from committing adultery with other men's wives, and this verse promotes prostitution as a much cheaper and less risky alternative.


What text or translation are you using, exactly?

You seem to be arguing off a version which feeds Septuagint > Vulgate > Catholic translations [and Pshitta], while most Protestant translations including KJV and Luther's work from the Hebrew with a different reading.

Before you argue the meaning of a passage with someone you at LEAST have to agree on the version to be used.

I thought this dialogue was going rabbit chicken, now I know why.



pandabear
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01 Jul 2011, 8:46 am

Any translation will suffice.

"A man can hire a prostitute for the price of a loaf of bread."

That's what it says.

The rest of the section warns you to stay away from the wives of other men. They are much too risky, and you can get yourself into a heap of trouble.



Oodain
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01 Jul 2011, 9:05 am

i find the idea that religions are a source of good behavior to be absolutely ridicoulous, it promotes much more bigotry and hate than it does the opposite.
some might argue they arent real (insert dogma here) but then they should make sure to correct the misuse of their own material before commenting on the people that simply dont want anything to do with it.

i am happy that there is little chance of any religious involvement in danish sexual education, (and we even have a state religion)


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YippySkippy
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01 Jul 2011, 11:49 am

If I tell you a loaf of bread costs two dollars, does that mean I control the price of bread?



Lecks
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01 Jul 2011, 1:44 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
If I tell you a loaf of bread costs two dollars, does that mean I control the price of bread?

No, but it does mean that your local prostitutes are pretty darn cheap.


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Philologos
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01 Jul 2011, 7:38 pm

pandabear wrote:
Any translation will suffice.

"A man can hire a prostitute for the price of a loaf of bread."

That's what it says.

The rest of the section warns you to stay away from the wives of other men. They are much too risky, and you can get yourself into a heap of trouble.


That is what IT says? You are looking maybe at the Hebrew and using your deep familiarity with Hebrew and the various strands of Jewish interpretation over the ages?

Or are you looking at a particular Anglic version which for some reason you do not want to name and too lazy or blinkered to notice that OTHER Anglic versions, working from different source texts with different interpretative traditions, do not say what "IT" says?

I saw that in Shqipërija - warned against it - where certain ones were "explaining" scriptural texts to the locals in blissful ignorance that the translation in front of the native in many cases said the OPPPOSITE of what they expected from their experience with Anglic translations.

How many different versions extant in English? I collected a few dozen before I gave up. No two alike.



Vexcalibur
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01 Jul 2011, 9:30 pm

http://bible.cc/proverbs/6-26.htm

New International Version (©1984)
for the prostitute reduces you to a loaf of bread, and the adulteress preys upon your very life.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For a prostitute will bring you to poverty, but sleeping with another man's wife will cost you your life.

English Standard Version (©2001)
for the price of a prostitute is only a loaf of bread, but a married woman hunts down a precious life.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For on account of a harlot one is reduced to a loaf of bread, And an adulteress hunts for the precious life.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
A prostitute's price is [only] a loaf of bread, but a married woman hunts for [your] life itself.

King James Bible
For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

American King James Version
For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

American Standard Version
For on account of a harlot a man is brought to a piece of bread; And the adulteress hunteth for the precious life.

Bible in Basic English
For a loose woman is looking for a cake of bread, but another man's wife goes after one's very life.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For the price of a harlot is scarce one loaf: but the woman catcheth the precious soul of a man.

Darby Bible Translation
for by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a loaf of bread, and another's wife doth hunt for the precious soul.

English Revised Version
For on account of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress hunteth for the precious life.

Webster's Bible Translation
For by means of a lewd woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

World English Bible
For a prostitute reduces you to a piece of bread. The adulteress hunts for your precious life.

Young's Literal Translation
For a harlot consumeth unto a cake of bread, And an adulteress the precious soul hunteth.

--
Conclusion: translations can make the bible say whatever the heck you want it to say. Not a good book to base your life upon.


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