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Why are atheists allowed to marry anyway?

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BurntOutMom
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30 Jun 2011, 3:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:

W's re-election campaign?


Back up that assertion with verifiable fact please. When and where were non-Christians roughed up, injured or physically threatened? And why didn't I notice. I am not a Christian.

ruveyn


You're quite right.. Perhaps I am wrong to assume that the same people that picket and bomb abortion clinics are the same trying to pass laws making abortion illegal.. Perhaps it's just the most vocal who proclaim their hate to be in God's name.

In my initial statement, I did not mean violence.. I meant continuous bulldogged determination to pass legislation against the things that they don't believe in, which is most often supported by God-belief..i.e. same-sex marriage, abortion, and end of life rights. All things that don't effect a person who doesn't choose to accept them. If I marry a woman, no effect on my neighbor. If I choose to have an abortion, no effect on my neighbor. And if I choose that in the event I should face a long and suffering death, not to endure it... my choice, it shouldn't make a difference to anyone if I die peacefully tomorrow, or horribly in 6 months. And as far as "creation theory" goes, they continuously try to have it taught in public schools where it has no place whatsoever. (I've never seen a non-Christian advocating that one.)

I am well aware that not all who support these do so based on religion, but I think the large majority of them are, and these tend to be the most vocal.



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30 Jun 2011, 3:40 pm

ruveyn wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:

W's re-election campaign?


Back up that assertion with verifiable fact please. When and where were non-Christians roughed up, injured or physically threatened? And why didn't I notice. I am not a Christian.

ruveyn


Not direct violence - dire warnings about what would happen if W weren't keeping all the terror at bay. F



Vexcalibur
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30 Jun 2011, 3:54 pm

ruveyn wrote:
When was the last time Christians or a Christian Organization used force or threat of force to achieve office in the United States?

ruveyn

Real question is when was the last time they needed to do that? Oh, that's right never.

It does not matter who gets elected or if the majority clearly wants a sacret state. The US constitution does not allow what some christian entities are trying to force in certain states. No, they didn't need any brute force or threats, but it does not mean they didn't try (or even accomplish) to trash the constitution.

The whole "In god we trust" thing should be enough of an example.


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30 Jun 2011, 9:30 pm

Hmm ... marriage to one Fundie woman, or civil unions with a dozen or so Atheist women ... decisions, decisions ...


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01 Jul 2011, 2:53 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
That's like asking why the police believe they can prosecute those who make pirate copies of music tracks when doing so goes against what society already allows.

Ridiculous. Here society = legal establishment. The legal rules already allow atheists and people who plan not to get children to marry. Legal marriage has stopped being a concept that depended on Christians' opinions a long time ago. The Christians wouldn't be able to be the police in your metaphore, because they don't have any legal power. And society in fact would be the whole government not people who think pirating is fine.

Ridiculous. Here, society =/= legal establishment. People, especially teenagers and students, routinely (legally) download music tracks and then (illegally) copy them to their friends' hard drives or iPods. Amateur musicians photocopy parts rather than buy brand new ones. Youtube is rife with piracy. The only people who are bothered by it are the publishers and the prosecution lawyers.
visagrunt wrote:
That argument cuts both ways. Society is not about conforming to Christianity.

I never claimed it was.
BurntOutMum wrote:
Hmmm.. Perhaps not, but it seems like they spend a lot of time trying to conform society by strong arming their way through government, trying to pass laws to dictate who can be married, what kind of "science" should be taught to our children, and what medical procedures a woman can choose to have.

Where are these people? All the Christians I've met have been kind, and open-minded. Of course there are a few unreasonable groups like you describe around but they rarely get any attention in the media and never get any attention in the government.
Philologos wrote:
Christmas [except for the name, and even then many do not pronounce the t as my mother did - and nobody says "Christ Mass} is not a Christian celebration, though the holiday sits on a Christian holy day.

It is a holiday for celebrating Christ's birth. Even though many people celebrate it as a time to be together with their families, how is it not essentially a Christian celebration?



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01 Jul 2011, 3:41 am

giving gifts and erecting a decorated tree around the time of the winter solstice are not inherently Christian.



CrinklyCrustacean
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01 Jul 2011, 3:52 am

LKL wrote:
giving gifts and erecting a decorated tree around the time of the winter solstice are not inherently Christian.

No but the celebration of Christ's birth, which is what Christmas is, is definitely Christian.



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01 Jul 2011, 7:21 am

CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
LKL wrote:
giving gifts and erecting a decorated tree around the time of the winter solstice are not inherently Christian.

No but the celebration of Christ's birth, which is what Christmas is, is definitely Christian.


We should discuss the Eucharist.

But for now - celebrating / recalling Christ's birth especially coupled with its wider implications and effects is certainly Christian,. and those who do that are acting like Christians.

But for a very large [I do not have statistics, it seems like a majority to me but Master Pedant keeps suggesting the statistics show otherwise] number of Americans that is not so. It is a Hallmark Civic holiday, not a holy day.

That other Hallmark Civic holiday, Easter, is worth looking at. For the Christian it is often a feast and holy day cel;ebrating Christ's resurrection after commemorating his death on Good Friday. Its NAME is borrowed from a deity of the Germanic pantheon - compare "yule" - whom neither the Christians nor the Hasenvolk worship.

A practice of Christians with symbolic Christian resonances is Christian - whatever its name. A practice of those who are effectively nonChristian without links to Christian faith is no more Christian than the swastika in Nazi usage is Harappan or Greek.



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01 Jul 2011, 10:27 am

LKL wrote:
giving gifts and erecting a decorated tree around the time of the winter solstice are not inherently Christian.


It is a civil custom. Mostly for the goyim.

ruveyn



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01 Jul 2011, 12:08 pm

Philologos wrote:
CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
LKL wrote:
giving gifts and erecting a decorated tree around the time of the winter solstice are not inherently Christian.

No but the celebration of Christ's birth, which is what Christmas is, is definitely Christian.


We should discuss the Eucharist.

But for now - celebrating / recalling Christ's birth especially coupled with its wider implications and effects is certainly Christian,. and those who do that are acting like Christians.

But for a very large [I do not have statistics, it seems like a majority to me but Master Pedant keeps suggesting the statistics show otherwise] number of Americans that is not so. It is a Hallmark Civic holiday, not a holy day.

That other Hallmark Civic holiday, Easter, is worth looking at. For the Christian it is often a feast and holy day cel;ebrating Christ's resurrection after commemorating his death on Good Friday. Its NAME is borrowed from a deity of the Germanic pantheon - compare "yule" - whom neither the Christians nor the Hasenvolk worship.

A practice of Christians with symbolic Christian resonances is Christian - whatever its name. A practice of those who are effectively nonChristian without links to Christian faith is no more Christian than the swastika in Nazi usage is Harappan or Greek.


the danish word for christmas is "jul" even the norse pantheon had a time for celebration in the winter, the exact date of a given event is usully a human construct or astronomically driven.

just because the actions bear similarities doesnt mean the intention nor the will is, many who celebrate with a christmas tree, presents and all that jazz do so more because of tradition or as an excuse for enjoying the company of family and friends, to think the very actions are christian is foolish.


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01 Jul 2011, 2:03 pm

CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
BurntOutMum wrote:
Hmmm.. Perhaps not, but it seems like they spend a lot of time trying to conform society by strong arming their way through government, trying to pass laws to dictate who can be married, what kind of "science" should be taught to our children, and what medical procedures a woman can choose to have.

Where are these people? All the Christians I've met have been kind, and open-minded. Of course there are a few unreasonable groups like you describe around but they rarely get any attention in the media and never get any attention in the government.


Apparently, they're congregating in the Republican party.... were you present a month or two ago when the issue of funding Planned Parenthood was the issue that nearly didn't get a federal budget passed? Forget the hemorrhaging of our military expenditure, the real "no deal" issue was preventing a few unwanted pregnancies (by comparison) and to get citizens up in arms... the only logical solution would be to hold all government and MILITARY salaries until the budget gets straightened out... If that doesn't qualify as strong-arming propaganda BS to promote special interest agenda, I don't know what would.

CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Christmas [except for the name, and even then many do not pronounce the t as my mother did - and nobody says "Christ Mass} is not a Christian celebration, though the holiday sits on a Christian holy day.

It is a holiday for celebrating Christ's birth. Even though many people celebrate it as a time to be together with their families, how is it not essentially a Christian celebration?

What about Christmas, besides the name, has anything to do with Christianity? The vast majority of so called "Christmas Traditions" were adopted from other, non-Christian, belief systems or fabricated for sales ads or by the music industry. What Christmas tradition do you have that is entirely Christian in origin, besides maybe attending church?? Do you have a birthday cake for Christ?



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01 Jul 2011, 2:17 pm

Good point, Atheists should never be allowed to marry until they prove they aren't going to eat their children



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01 Jul 2011, 3:46 pm

The Religious Right doesn't like atheists—probably at least as much as they dislike non-heterosexuals. I'm sure some theocrats would like to stamp the imprimatur of their church on all marriages in the United States, rolling back secular marriage entirely. They're currently hot and bothered about the "gay threat," though.



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01 Jul 2011, 6:09 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Good point, Atheists should never be allowed to marry until they prove they aren't going to eat their children


Damn, there goes my chance of marriage :evil:

Basically I feel opposing marriage on any grounds other than legal ones is straight out bigotry, and then if the legal reason is anything other than an age issue it is most likely based upon bigotry.


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01 Jul 2011, 6:17 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Good point, Atheists should never be allowed to marry until they prove they aren't going to eat their children


Damn, there goes my chance of marriage :evil:

Basically I feel opposing marriage on any grounds other than legal ones is straight out bigotry, and then if the legal reason is anything other than an age issue it is most likely based upon bigotry.


Why would an age issue be exempt from bigotry?



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01 Jul 2011, 9:08 pm

BurntOutMom wrote:
CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
BurntOutMum wrote:
Hmmm.. Perhaps not, but it seems like they spend a lot of time trying to conform society by strong arming their way through government, trying to pass laws to dictate who can be married, what kind of "science" should be taught to our children, and what medical procedures a woman can choose to have.

Where are these people? All the Christians I've met have been kind, and open-minded. Of course there are a few unreasonable groups like you describe around but they rarely get any attention in the media and never get any attention in the government.


Apparently, they're congregating in the Republican party.... were you present a month or two ago when the issue of funding Planned Parenthood was the issue that nearly didn't get a federal budget passed? Forget the hemorrhaging of our military expenditure, the real "no deal" issue was preventing a few unwanted pregnancies (by comparison) and to get citizens up in arms... the only logical solution would be to hold all government and MILITARY salaries until the budget gets straightened out... If that doesn't qualify as strong-arming propaganda BS to promote special interest agenda, I don't know what would.

Is this problem with Christians specific to the USA, then? I just wonder because I've never lived there and the issues you are describing don't seem to occur here or elsewhere. I could be wrong though.

BurntOutMum wrote:
CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Christmas [except for the name, and even then many do not pronounce the t as my mother did - and nobody says "Christ Mass} is not a Christian celebration, though the holiday sits on a Christian holy day.

It is a holiday for celebrating Christ's birth. Even though many people celebrate it as a time to be together with their families, how is it not essentially a Christian celebration?

What about Christmas, besides the name, has anything to do with Christianity? The vast majority of so called "Christmas Traditions" were adopted from other, non-Christian, belief systems or fabricated for sales ads or by the music industry. What Christmas tradition do you have that is entirely Christian in origin, besides maybe attending church?? Do you have a birthday cake for Christ?

Would American Independence Day still be an American celebration if the only celebrants were 50 Bulgarians in a tiny restaurant in China?