How do you know the Bible is from God?

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WrongMan
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12 Jul 2011, 8:24 pm

OddFinn wrote:

WrongMan wrote:

Are you implying that the odds that you exist are the same as the odds that the Bible is a collection of divinely inspired books?

No. I'm an Aspie, there is nothing written between the lines.

So do you believe it's fair to believe we exist rather than not exist?

And do you believe it's much more reasonable to believe the Bible was written by mere humans according to their own desires rather than according to God's will?

WrongMan
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12 Jul 2011, 8:27 pm

91 wrote:

WrongMan wrote:

91 wrote:

As a Catholic, the Bible is not the central component of my faith (though it is certainly very important). I didn't approach the Bible under the assumption is was true and work from there. I agreed that it was mostly true because it was an accurate representation of what I had found to be true through spiritual experience.

Tell us about your spiritual experience. How did it help you find the truth?

That is a very private question. Suffice to say I had a significant sense of God, the holy spirit and the truth of Christianity. Enough to deny my natural skepticism and convince me not to be an atheist anymore.

What if a Muslim told you that he had a significant sense of God and the truth in Islam? Would you just take his word for it?

ruveyn
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12 Jul 2011, 8:28 pm

WrongMan wrote:

OddFinn wrote:

WrongMan wrote:

Are you implying that the odds that you exist are the same as the odds that the Bible is a collection of divinely inspired books?

No. I'm an Aspie, there is nothing written between the lines.

Everything that is written (which we have access to) is written by humans or computers programmed by humans.

ruveyn

WrongMan
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12 Jul 2011, 8:31 pm

Philologos wrote:

01001011 wrote:

Philologos wrote:

I have gone over this - guess you missed that class? Let us just start with the most basic and obvious. Prove you exis - or prove I exist, I don't care. If you do not exist - if I do not exist - then all the rest of the world, which rests on our existing in order to poerceive it, let alone have this discussion, falls apart. But the assumption that either of us exists, while it is consistent with my impressions, cannot be proven.

How do you define 'I'? What if 'I' tell 'you' 'Philologos' doesn't really exist but is just a delusion? (I am an eliminative materialist.)

As I said, we have gone over this. In fact I am pretty sure I addressed it to you.

I cannot prove to you that I exist. I cannot even prove it to myself. It is a reasonable working hypothesis to explain what appear to be perceptions to assume - until more data come in - that I exist and that there exist other entities outside me. But it cannot be proven. It is simply one of those impossible to prove base assumptions that we all use to ground our explorations and reasonings.

For some reason, some of us feel it necessary for their mental health to reproach others for believing things they have perceived but cannot prove - even though anybody who belierves he exists does precisely that.

How do you perceive God?

ruveyn
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12 Jul 2011, 8:36 pm

91 wrote:

]

That is a very private question. Suffice to say I had a significant sense of God, the holy spirit and the truth of Christianity. Enough to deny my natural skepticism and convince me not to be an atheist anymore.

Delusion trumps reason?

ruveyn

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12 Jul 2011, 8:57 pm

WrongMan wrote:

OddFinn wrote:

WrongMan wrote:

Or do they simply choose to believe what can't be shown to be true?

That. How can you know anything to be true? How do you know that this site was made by Alex Plank? How do you know this post was written by me? You really can't know anything for sure. You just choose what to believe. Good luck!

Are you implying that the odds that you exist are the same as the odds that the Bible is a collection of divinely inspired books?

This line of "prove you exist" is to my mind Intellectual/philosophical masturbation, It is a good tool to get people thinking of multiple possibilities but to use this in an argument to help support the existence of god is kind of pathetic, and really demonstrates the lengths to which some people will go in their cognitive dissonance.

WrongMan you are correct to point to probabilities. Whilst we cannot (as of yet) prove the non existence of god the probability of its existence gets less and less in relation to the continued expansion of our scientific understanding of the universe and whats is contained within it.

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Moog
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12 Jul 2011, 9:00 pm

I saw him writing it. With a pen. It was huge

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Philologos
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12 Jul 2011, 9:39 pm

WrongMan wrote:

What if a Muslim told you that he had a significant sense of God and the truth in Islam? Would you just take his word for it?

I for one would take him at his word. Anybody can have a sense.

I see it as quite possible and indeed likely that a serious seeking Muslim would find his way to God.

There is truth in Islam, and why should he not have a sense of it?

I would not - as atheist or as Christian - take his sense of God as prima facie evidence, though it would be stacked with the ,myriads of other reports.

I would not - as atheist or as Christian - take his sense of the truth of Islam as certifying Islamic doctrine as a whole, any more than I take 91's word as certifying Christian doctrine as a whole.

Philologos
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12 Jul 2011, 10:19 pm

WrongMan wrote:

How do you perceive God?

If you mean "How does one perceive God?" I cannot answer for anyone else - there are several who have talked about it in different ways. If you mean "How does the scholar known on WP as Philologos perceive God?", see below.

If you mean with what organ, at present I very much doubt there is an organ given the probable duality of Homo sapiens and the probable nature of God.

If you mean what externally observable phenomena coincide with God perception, that varies. A quarter in the grass, words in sound or writing [compare the Augustine incident], a change in heartbeat - whatever.

If you mean what does it feel like to perceive God, it is very similar to seeing a face at the airport gate or a note on the table or a garment on the back of a chair, or hearing a voice, a footstep, or a tune playing and knowing your loved one is there.

If you want to expand to how can you be certain I perceive God - you can't. You CAN be certain YOU perceive God, though.

OddFinn
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12 Jul 2011, 11:03 pm

WrongMan wrote:

I don't think it has much to do with fairness. But since you asked: yes I believe that I exist. And because I did not write that question, I have reasons to believe that the question was written by someone, other than myself.

Usually it is assumed, that books were written by humans. If the name of the author(s) is written into that particular book, it is common to assume, that they in fact are the authors. Many of the books in the collection of books called the Bible include the names of their authors, so I assume that they were the actual authors.

The question whether they wrote according their own desires rather than according to God's will, is not something one would usually ask, when reading a book. Those two options do not necessarily rule each other out. Don't you think that it would be possible that they wrote both according their own desires, and according to God's will?

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91
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13 Jul 2011, 12:00 am

WrongMan wrote:

What if a Muslim told you that he had a significant sense of God and the truth in Islam? Would you just take his word for it?

Not likely. Firstly, Christians and (most) Muslims, have a very different idea of what they mean when they talk about spiritual experience. There are a couple of small sects who claim to have an experience comparable to the Christian experience of the Holy Spirit, but I find it is important to distinguish. Secondly, I stated on the last page that proving something to others and accepting it as truth yourself are not the same question. When you as a question like yours, you are talking about the individul's justification for belief. The question of 'how can someone else know?' the Bible is from God, is a different question.

@Ruveyn

Not really a point that interacts with anything I have said.

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DentArthurDent
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13 Jul 2011, 6:08 am

91 wrote:

I stated on the last page that proving something to others and accepting it as truth yourself are not the same question.

Naturally, the former requires actual evidence, the removal of bias, etc. The latter allows the believer to ignore all scientific understanding, all empirical data, etc, or at least find excuses for why these do not apply in 'this instance'.

91
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13 Jul 2011, 6:24 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

91 wrote:

I stated on the last page that proving something to others and accepting it as truth yourself are not the same question.

I read the interesting summary by the 'CNN Belief Blog' recently. They found that most the most fervent comments that were made, were made by atheists. I find it strange that the children of reason can be so utterly deaf to just how judgement some of their comments are. Most of the atheists I have met cite run ins with judgmental Christians as one of their main reasons for disbelief (despite the fact that this is just illogical aside). I wonder how long it will be before atheists see comments like these as a reason not to be an atheist. The simple fact is, that you have just assumed I am ignorant, lacking in appreciation for science and contemptuous of empirical data. Why don't you now ask me if I have stopped beating my girlfriend too. Loaded statements that assume basic points seem to become you.

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13 Jul 2011, 8:11 am

ruveyn wrote:

WrongMan wrote:

OddFinn wrote:

WrongMan wrote:

Are you implying that the odds that you exist are the same as the odds that the Bible is a collection of divinely inspired books?

No. I'm an Aspie, there is nothing written between the lines.

Everything that is written (which we have access to) is written by humans or computers programmed by humans.

ruveyn

You assert that but you cannot prove that. There are ancient documents of the humanity of whose authors we know nothing. Besides, you have no way of knowing even if I who write this am human. Why, you have not even defined "human" as used in this context.

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13 Jul 2011, 9:03 am

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Philologos
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13 Jul 2011, 9:39 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

The Blue Ink Napkin is a ludicrous forgery. The only TRUE Napkin [may it wipe the world] is the Napkin Inscribed in Green that I received from my grandfather the Lawgiver - on whom be peace.

Death to the Blasphemers!

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