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Therion
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25 Sep 2006, 1:11 pm

1. The modern day market economy is also a planned system. The only difference on that aspects is that planning in production schemes is undertaken by the state and the companies today, while in the technate it would sort under the technate and under holons, which indeed could compete about getting the projects done.

2. You could get your own ideal car customised on a depot, and use it for as long as you want through your energy certifikate. But when you are not going to use it anymore, just return it to the depot [or it will most likely drive there by itself when you get out of energy credits or have unplugged your certifikate for a specific amount of time.

3. No matter how much money or wealth you got in the Roman empire, the city of Rome is today producing more energy in one day than the entire Roman empire produced in one year. Face it. We have a wholly different situation today.



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25 Sep 2006, 7:34 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Therion wrote:
Wrong. The sequences are not deciding exactly what people should consume, but rather the production of the things the public desire. The energy accounting system is designed to imitate the price system, but without profits or bottlenecks. The facilities are basing their production after the input of energy credits.
The economy is still planned, I never said that it was supposed to work by deciding what individuals consume, I said it was planned. Planning means that it is not a system of the liberty of individuals but rather controlled by outside forces, now of course you can claim that these technocrats are supposed to serve the people, but the communists stated that the fruits of labor were supposed to help the proletariat. The point to be made is that although this system is designed to help people it can still be subverted from its originally intended path as these planners still have monopoly control over the situation and altough they may not intend to draw profit they can avoid efficiency and lie about their progress. As well, profits play an important role in economic affairs to begin with as profits essentially guide where production should go, if something is profitable then it makes sense to make more and more of it to meet the demand, without the profit motive then individuals have little reason to try to make things work, especially given that the different methods of manufacture. Essentially, the problem with technocracy will end with it being untenable due to the fact that there are thousands of methods to do things, people who place different values on things, poor incentives and faulty information, which is the same problem with communism.

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According to economics, yes. But according to technocracy, no.

According to you, scarcity is something subjective, according to us, it is objective. People do not have the physical capability to consume endlessly. The Pareto diagramme shows a world where 80% of the resources are concentrated to 20% of the population, both globally and nationally.

With increased load factors of equipment which is utilised through the replacement of ownership with usership, we would suddenly face a situation when everything is available to everyone without the need of excessive duplication.

Yes, but people still want to own as they still hold attachments to things. Human life is subjective, a system that ignores that is a system that will repress human desire and thwart freedom. Frankly, I might want a car for myself really badly that is personally customized, fitted with a spoiler and racing stripes, in a non-ownership society the ability to get my perfect car personally customized is blocked off to me no matter how badly I want it and how much I am willing to sacrifice for this car, now frankly, I cannot see this as anything but a bad system that doesn't allow people to act in such a manner. As well, the lack of ownership can easily lead to hoarding or the fallacy of the commons in many cases as individuals have little reason to share what they want and think is important and little reason to take care of what they do not directly own.

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Money and financial manipulations do not create anything valuable. The only thing which could create the energy surplus to increase prosperity is the technological capacity. The price system is only good at one thing, and that is to distribute scarce goods. We do not have scarcity anymore, so government intervention is utilised to create artificial scarcity just to save the market economy.

Of course they do, they are a system of distribution in and of themselves and they are a part of the price mechanism's actions to increase wealth. Money isn't a value in and of itself and that has been known since the economists attacked the mercantilists. We still have scarcity though, people want various items for themselves and for their own purposes, and prices are a tool to calculate which purpose is truly more important based upon how much people value it.


Hey Awsomelyglorious!! ! You have 666 posts!! Bruuuhuuhuuuwhuuhaaahaahaaahaaahaaa!! !


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Awesomelyglorious
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28 Sep 2006, 6:00 pm

Therion wrote:
1. The modern day market economy is also a planned system. The only difference on that aspects is that planning in production schemes is undertaken by the state and the companies today, while in the technate it would sort under the technate and under holons, which indeed could compete about getting the projects done.

2. You could get your own ideal car customised on a depot, and use it for as long as you want through your energy certifikate. But when you are not going to use it anymore, just return it to the depot [or it will most likely drive there by itself when you get out of energy credits or have unplugged your certifikate for a specific amount of time.

3. No matter how much money or wealth you got in the Roman empire, the city of Rome is today producing more energy in one day than the entire Roman empire produced in one year. Face it. We have a wholly different situation today.

No, it isn't. There are incentive systems at work that attempt to make things more efficient. Technocracy according to what you stated earlier seeks to remove these incentives with planned wages and control. Companies do plan, however, their plans are not necessarily in control over society and they can be displaced by other individuals seeking their own gain. The technocratic system couldn't work without being structured to be private due to the incentization problems, as part of the goal was to get rid of the varied incentives that allow capitalism to function and it creates issues of people who want to start their own businesses and control their own economic destinies. Not everyone wants to work for a company and there are many many small businesses that supply us with goods and services even today. Heck, even big companies such as Dell once started off as projects by a small entrepreneur back in their garage or dorm and the change that these individuals contribute is an important aspect of the market as the market isn't just a constant, it is something in motion and full of change.

By customizing the car I reduce its usability to other individuals as they will find its features less attractive, therefore for me to pay rent on it is rather useless as if I just stop paying then you have a car with little usability to other people. As well, the car would have to be fitted with more material to make it self-driving, and likely a self-driving car would be a bad idea given the dangers in the roads, and for the most part a self-driving car is fanciful more than realistic. It would be more efficient to have me buy it outright because the vehicle has more value to me than any other user, and self-driving vehicles are a waste of resources.

Ok, the Roman empire produced less energy, so what? Everyone already knew that, as well, Rome today also has a more advanced economy than the Roman empire and the average person today in an advanced nation lives better than the royalty of the past, we have more resources today and we take advantage of them and we continue to use them more efficiently and more effectively. Capitalism isn't a dead ideology for a past civilization like other distribution systems, it is a system that functions to this very day and does so relatively effectively. If anything, the modern economy needs capitalism to deal with the complexities we have and to make them work effectively, as the freedom that capitalism allows something that is a necessity and technocracy ultimately seeks to restrain this freedom seeing it as a danger and wrong for whatever wrongheaded reason.



Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 29 Sep 2006, 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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28 Sep 2006, 10:01 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
No, it isn't. There are incentive systems at work that attempt to make things more efficient. Technocracy according to what you stated earlier seeks to remove these incentives with planned wages and control. Companies do plan, however, their plans are not necessarily in control over society and they can be displaced by other individuals seeking their own gain. The technocratic system couldn't work without being structured to be private due to the incentization problems, as part of the goal was to get rid of the varied incentives that allow capitalism to function and it creates issues of people who want to start their own businesses and control their own economic destinies. Not everyone wants to work for a company and there are many many small businesses that supply us with goods and services even today. Heck, even big companies such as Dell once started off as projects by a small entrepreneur back in their garage or dorm and the change that these individuals contribute is an important aspect of the market as the market isn't just a constant, it is something in motion and full of change.

By customizing the car I reduce its usability to other individuals as they will find its features less attractive, therefore for me to pay rent on it is rather useless. As well, the car would have to be fitted with more material to make it self-driving, and likely a self-driving car would be a bad idea given the dangers in the roads, and for the most part a self-driving car is fanciful more than realistic. It would be more efficient to have me buy it outright because the vehicle has more value to me than any other user, and self-driving vehicles are a waste of resources.

Ok, the Roman empire produced less energy, so what? Everyone already knew that, as well, Rome today also has a more advanced economy than the Roman empire and the average person today in an advanced nation lives better than the royalty of the past, we have more resources today and we take advantage of them and we continue to use them more efficiently and more effectively. Capitalism isn't a dead ideology for a past civilization like other distribution systems, it is a system that functions to this very day and does so relatively effectively. If anything, the modern economy needs capitalism to deal with the complexities we have and to make them work effectively, as the freedom that capitalism allows something that is a necessity and technocracy ultimately seeks to restrain this freedom seeing it as a danger and wrong for whatever wrongheaded reason.


Hey Amsomelyglorious (zheesh is there somethin else I could call you?? that takes too long to type!! :wink: )
These are all very valid points, BUT you're missing the point by answering Therion's points one by one.
The weakest point of his argument is implementation. I posed this question to him that he DID'NT ANSWER
Scrapheap wrote:
I have just one question for you Therion,

By impementing this "Technocracy" you're asking tens of thousands of very rich and powerfull people to simply give up thier power and wealth. How do you intend to pull that one off??


I could follow up with more questions Therion can't answer.

This system of yours leaves several "Power Vaccums" which must be filled somehow. How do you intend to do it?? How will you address the corruption which will result if you fail to establish sufficently strong institutions?? How will you prevent this system from being misused??


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29 Sep 2006, 7:58 am

You are probably right on that, especially given the fact that technocrats seek to do crazy things like move everyone out of cities into little communities, remove the pre-existing property right structure, etc. To do such things would offend those with power and a good portion of the middle class as well and given the fact that you are right, it would take revolution and create power vacuums in doing this, it would corrupt the system, as few revolutions work perfectly especially if the concepts are revolutionary. I am mostly addressing the issue that I believe a technocratic economy wouldn't do as well as a capitalistic economy due to the fact that incentives will be poor, and that people want their own property, and that a planned technocratic economy won't be as efficient because of poor incentives and issues with the amount of necessary trade-offs and calculating what is good through that. I should probably stop though, it likely isn't worth discussing as it is unlikely to ever be implemented and it basically ends up being the same type of discussion as a communism vs capitalism debate like happens when dealing with a diehard communist(s) and a few capitalists and those really go nowhere.



Therion
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29 Sep 2006, 2:04 pm

Of course we have a strategy in Europe for that. Albeit we are not going to set for any elections, we are going to build our community network from scratch and then continuously expanding and developing it, using it both as an expansion ground and as a way to make experiments upon ourselves.

And P.S - It is not centrally planned when consumers are controlling what is going to be produced through their EC;s.



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30 Sep 2006, 11:05 am

Therion wrote:
And P.S - It is not centrally planned when consumers are controlling what is going to be produced through their EC;s.

Yes it is, and I am not going to say anything more on that.



Therion
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01 Oct 2006, 9:49 am

No, it is an interactive economy where consumers through their energy credits are deciding what is going to be produced.

Sectorial planning of infrastructure exists in most developed countries today. If you believe that is central planning, then both the EU and the USA are planned economies.



ion
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01 Oct 2006, 2:27 pm

After reading about it, I conclude that it's nothing more than a form of high tech totalitarian communism.
Furthermore, being a programmer and SF reader, I'm a total luddite when it comes to machines controlling stuff.
They're even more flawed than we are.
The society drawn up in those articles would be something fetched straight from my worst nightmares.
I'd rather EVEN live in an anarchy.
At least then I could go wherever I wanted and keep my currency units as long as I wish, and not be bothered by people I either couldn't dispose of or that would want to control every aspect of my life.



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27 Oct 2006, 2:37 am

"Technocracy" is just another form of State Socialism, which, as a Libertarian Socialist, I abhor.


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Therion
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31 Oct 2006, 5:39 pm

Actually, NET;s version of technocracy is more related to your ideology than to stalinism.



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31 Oct 2006, 6:32 pm

The organization of Canada, the USA, and Mexico into a single "technate", something that is required to prove the theory, would be next to impossible.



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25 Dec 2007, 10:12 pm

Therion wrote:
Actually, NET;s version of technocracy is more related to your ideology than to stalinism.


Technocracy is a form of "utopian" social engineering, which Karl Popper criticized in The Open Society and It's Enemies. A technocratic society would require a group of revolutionary utopians to implement, and those utopians would naturally supress any dissent against thier totalistic utopian social engineering. It is basically a form of iconolastic societal slate-cleaning. Just like Communism, Anarchism, and Right-Libertarianism it sounds good on paper but can't work in practice.


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25 Dec 2007, 10:18 pm

Odin wrote:
Technocracy is a form of "utopian" social engineering, which Karl Popper criticized in The Open Society and It's Enemies. A technocratic society would require a group of revolutionary utopians to implement, and those utopians would naturally supress any dissent against thier totalistic utopian social engineering. It is basically a form of iconolastic societal slate-cleaning. Just like Communism, Anarchism, and Right-Libertarianism it sounds good on paper but can't work in practice.

One year later..... a bit of a necro, don't you think?



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26 Dec 2007, 12:56 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
One year later..... a bit of a necro, don't you think?


I somethimes check out old threads if I'm bored and sometimes necromance them if I forget they are old threads. :oops:


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