"THE FREE MARKET HAS FAILED"
wcoltd wrote:
I don't understand how anyone who can believe in evolution, does not believe in the free market.
_________________
Synthetic carbo-polymers got em through man. They got em through mouse. They got through, and we're gonna get out.
-Roostre
READ THIS -> https://represent.us/
wcoltd wrote:
LKL wrote:
wcoltd wrote:
LKL wrote:
wcoltd wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
The "free market" has always depended on a variety of wisely-wielded controls to prevent it from being twisted into something horrible.
Monopolies are illegal, but they largely exist because legislation undid prohibitions and while X, Y and Z corps don't have a "monopoly" in the legalistic term, they control over 90% of the market, set everything as if they were one entity, deny the public options, etc.
This distorts what a free market is supposed to be about...healthy competition.
Monopolies are illegal, but they largely exist because legislation undid prohibitions and while X, Y and Z corps don't have a "monopoly" in the legalistic term, they control over 90% of the market, set everything as if they were one entity, deny the public options, etc.
This distorts what a free market is supposed to be about...healthy competition.
How do monopolies come to be? It is either through help from the government, or because they provide goods or services more efficiently than their competitors.
Monopolies come to be when an owner with tremendous amounts of pre-existing cash buys up the supply chain (vertical monopoly) or buys out the competition (horizontal monopoly) in order to become so efficient that it can out-compete any future competitors, even to the degree of setting its prices so low that it temporarily takes a loss. Efficiency is primarily the result, not the origin. Sometimes the original company did have some advantage that allowed it to expand in the first place, but not usually an advantage large enough to justify (in terms of the well-being of the consumer) driving out any and all competition.
I addressed that in the paper!
(snip exerpt for brevity)
So one inventor had a vastly superior process, and beat out his competitor because they undersold him enough that he was able to make a profit even after the shipping and handling costs of ferrying a product between different markets. That strategy will not work if the entrepreneur's product is only a little better than the monopoly's, or if the market is global (ie, the monopoly is undercutting prices everywhere), or if the undercut is shallow enough that people still buy the monopoly's product, but not so shallow that the entrepreneur can make a profit after paying for shipping costs.
In addition, the problem with monopolies isn't that they prevent new people from getting rich, but that they prevent competition of products. In the case you cited, the advantage provided by the entrepreneur was only price, and by buying and selling he managed to get rich; the customer was largely unaffected because bromine is bromine regardless of how it is produced. If the entrepreneur has a genuinely better product - more purified bromine, say, or a better mousetrap - but is reduced to trading the monopoly's material, then the consumer has lost out on access to the better product.
The consumer will always buy the best product for the best price. If there is a situation where the price is so low that no one can possibly compete (due to high efficiency of the monopoly producer) that is not a bad thing. That is a very good thing, competition is good because it lowers prices for the consumer, competition can't do that because prices are already as low as they can go, then having the monopoly raise prices in order to open up competition only tries to solve the problem that was just created.
Herbert Dow wasn't reduced to selling his competitors product, he was still selling his bromide (at a higher price) if he had gone out of business, they would have sharply raised prices and he would have not been able to continue buying all the cheap bromide.
You answer your own question. The monopoly only sets the price low until its competitors are driven out of business; then they can set the price as high as they like. Consumers don't have the time to research every product that they buy and every producer that the buy from; they will buy the cheaper product in the short term, not knowing that it means that the price will be jacked up in the long term.
Again, if the producer of the better product is driven out of business by a huge company that is manipulating prices, the consumers lose out in the long term. Why is that difficult for you to grasp?
wcoltd wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Quote:
Previous to Aguas Del Tunari, the government had a regressive pricing policy on their water, since they were taking up greater costs and risks for supplying water to the poorer communities, they had opted to charge them more for their water, so much so that as a result the poorer clients were paying more than 6 times more for the same amount of water. It was actually such a price differential that the rich who were partially comprised of cocaine farmers, were able to pull the water from the city supply and sell it in tanqueros to supply water to the poor communities. Bechtel suspects that it was this financial incentive that was behind the irrational protesting in Cochabamba Bolivia.
"Irrational protesting".I don't understand how anyone who can believe in evolution, does not believe in the free market.
The free market just applies the idea of natural selection to businesses.
How come this process cannot work in the free market when it works so well in biology?
You know what happens in biology? Species go extinct. Very often. Animals are eaten by other animals, disembowled while they are still alive and conscious by lions or wolves, suffocated by constrictor snakes. Animals die of curable diseases. Cubs die of starvation. It is messy and painful, as well as beautiful.
It is not wrong to wish that civilization is more like a garden than a jungle.
wcoltd wrote:
I don't understand how anyone who can believe in evolution, does not believe in the free market.
The free market just applies the idea of natural selection to businesses.
How come this process cannot work in the free market when it works so well in biology?
The free market just applies the idea of natural selection to businesses.
How come this process cannot work in the free market when it works so well in biology?
Seriously? Damn...
The libertarian standard line is that government should step out of the way, stop interfering and limit itself to enforcement of property rights and defence.
If you want 'natural selection' and a truly 'free market' you need to get rid of those two clauses.
So you spent 8 years in university getting a doctorate, 1 year working for free to get your foot in the door and another 15 working your way up to a tidy six figure salary. Well bully for you. By natural selection rules, the big mother f****r that spent three months doing press ups has every right to burn your house to the ground, rape your wife and steal your booty.
When exactly was the last time you watched a nature documentary where a gazelle charged a lion rent?
When exactly was the last time you watched a nature documentary where the lion stopped chasing the gazelle because it had respect for 'property rights' and wouldn't trespass on property owned by another lion so it decided to slink off and watch it's cubs starve to death?
When exactly was the last time you saw a gazelle dial 911 and get the boys in blue round to lock the lion up for 'violating' his 'rights' ?
I'm guessing never?
Because red in tooth and claw means just that. Your 'laws' mean nothing. Your 'property rights' mean nothing. The big violent guys win every single time, without exception. (*Unless you are very, very small bacteria and overwhelm them with force of numbers. Bacteria are bloody communists.)
If you don't get how people could not bow down worship at the idea of natural selection being the way forward, try doing this.
1) Buy a plane ticket to the K50 airport.
2) Spend a couple of weeks there.
3) Cry like a little a b***h about how good law and order is.
Get the point yet?
PS If evolution is so great, why do I have an appendix?
DC wrote:
wcoltd wrote:
I don't understand how anyone who can believe in evolution, does not believe in the free market.
The free market just applies the idea of natural selection to businesses.
How come this process cannot work in the free market when it works so well in biology?
The free market just applies the idea of natural selection to businesses.
How come this process cannot work in the free market when it works so well in biology?
Seriously? Damn...
The libertarian standard line is that government should step out of the way, stop interfering and limit itself to enforcement of property rights and defence.
If you want 'natural selection' and a truly 'free market' you need to get rid of those two clauses.
So you spent 8 years in university getting a doctorate, 1 year working for free to get your foot in the door and another 15 working your way up to a tidy six figure salary. Well bully for you. By natural selection rules, the big mother f**** that spent three months doing press ups has every right to burn your house to the ground, rape your wife and steal your booty.
When exactly was the last time you watched a nature documentary where a gazelle charged a lion rent?
When exactly was the last time you watched a nature documentary where the lion stopped chasing the gazelle because it had respect for 'property rights' and wouldn't trespass on property owned by another lion so it decided to slink off and watch it's cubs starve to death?
When exactly was the last time you saw a gazelle dial 911 and get the boys in blue round to lock the lion up for 'violating' his 'rights' ?
I'm guessing never?
Because red in tooth and claw means just that. Your 'laws' mean nothing. Your 'property rights' mean nothing. The big violent guys win every single time, without exception. (*Unless you are very, very small bacteria and overwhelm them with force of numbers. Bacteria are bloody communists.)
If you don't get how people could not bow down worship at the idea of natural selection being the way forward, try doing this.
1) Buy a plane ticket to the K50 airport.
2) Spend a couple of weeks there.
3) Cry like a little a b***h about how good law and order is.
Get the point yet?
PS If evolution is so great, why do I have an appendix?
That's a very literal way of interpreting what I wrote. As you know, businesses don't literally eat other businesses, their food is market share. They survive by making more money then they put in. They are very much guided by the laws of nature. Those businesses which provide the most useful goods or services survive or thrive where those that do not die out.
Businesses are prevented from plundering one another (through raiding parties or whatever) which is not against the free market. The freemarket necessitates a definition and enforcement of private property. It is not without government. In a free-market system the only role for government is to protect private property.
wcoltd wrote:
Businesses are prevented from plundering one another (through raiding parties or whatever) which is not against the free market. The freemarket necessitates a definition and enforcement of private property. It is not without government. In a free-market system the only role for government is to protect private property.
Thanks for confirming the point about libertarian philosophy, now where in natural selection is the enforcement of property rights?
Or are you going to retract your statement?
DC wrote:
wcoltd wrote:
Businesses are prevented from plundering one another (through raiding parties or whatever) which is not against the free market. The freemarket necessitates a definition and enforcement of private property. It is not without government. In a free-market system the only role for government is to protect private property.
Thanks for confirming the point about libertarian philosophy, now where in natural selection is the enforcement of property rights?
Or are you going to retract your statement?
natural selection occurs within that framework.
I suppose you might argue that societies that don't enforce property rights fail. Leaving only societies that only prevent private property rights remaining.
wcoltd wrote:
natural selection occurs within that framework.
I suppose you might argue that societies that don't enforce property rights fail. Leaving only societies that only prevent private property rights remaining.
Natural selection has no framework that is the whole point of 'natural' selection, it accepts no masters it takes no prisoners, it obeys no arbitrary laws. If there is a framework it is unwarranted government interference.
A 'framework' relies on all actors agreeing to adhere to a certain set of rules and an authority to enforce compliance. That is not natural selection.
wcoltd wrote:
I don't understand how anyone who can believe in evolution, does not believe in the free market.
The free market just applies the idea of natural selection to businesses.
How come this process cannot work in the free market when it works so well in biology?
In what way does a free market produce a reproductive advantage? Natural selection is based on reproductive success.
ruveyn
DC wrote:
wcoltd wrote:
natural selection occurs within that framework.
I suppose you might argue that societies that don't enforce property rights fail. Leaving only societies that only prevent private property rights remaining.
Natural selection has no framework that is the whole point of 'natural' selection, it accepts no masters it takes no prisoners, it obeys no arbitrary laws. If there is a framework it is unwarranted government interference.
A 'framework' relies on all actors agreeing to adhere to a certain set of rules and an authority to enforce compliance. That is not natural selection.
Whether or not there is a framework is irrelevent to the idea of natural selection. Natural selection is just the idea that the best (thing) survives whereas the less well thing dies out.
ruveyn wrote:
wcoltd wrote:
I don't understand how anyone who can believe in evolution, does not believe in the free market.
The free market just applies the idea of natural selection to businesses.
How come this process cannot work in the free market when it works so well in biology?
In what way does a free market produce a reproductive advantage? Natural selection is based on reproductive success.
ruveyn
It does not operate in entirely the same way. (obviously businesses can't mate and reproduce) however the ideas and principles associated with management and processes (things like factory assembly lines) are taken and used in new businesses. The ideas are re-produced in new businesses. The ideas that assist a business produce things more efficiently make it more likely to survive. The ideas that work are preserved and the ones that don't lead businesses to falter.
wcoltd wrote:
Whether or not there is a framework is irrelevent to the idea of natural selection. Natural selection is just the idea that the best (thing) survives whereas the less well thing dies out.
Natural selection isn't supposed to be something you base a society on. It is supposed to be a harsh reality.
_________________
Synthetic carbo-polymers got em through man. They got em through mouse. They got through, and we're gonna get out.
-Roostre
READ THIS -> https://represent.us/
wcoltd wrote:
Whether or not there is a framework is irrelevent to the idea of natural selection. Natural selection is just the idea that the best (thing) survives whereas the less well thing dies out.
I can't be arsed to post it but please insert a thousand facepalms right here.
By definition, 'natural' selection is natural, the clue is in the name. If you start inserting arbitrary rules you are no longer under going natural selection.
Perhaps promotion to Pope depends on how much cardinal dick you sucked, this is not natural selection.
Perhaps the breeding of a cow depends on how she appears to a farmer. This is not natural selection.
Perhaps the distribution of chilli plant depends on a scientific measurement of yield per plant or scoviles per chilli or the attractiveness of the chilli or the colour of the chilli or the length of the flowering period or the size of the chilli, this is not natural selection.
Natural selection has zero rules applied. ZERO. If some guy, even god, wades in and starts altering the NATURAL breeding patterns then you are by definition, not undergoing natural selection but undergoing artificial selection.
LKL wrote:
Again, if the producer of the better product is driven out of business by a huge company that is manipulating prices, the consumers lose out in the long term. Why is that difficult for you to grasp?
Do you have any evidence to suggest that this a common practice? If I am understanding you correctly, you are worried that firms will sell stuff at a loss in the hopes that they will be able to jack up prices enough in the future to recover their previous losses, recover their forgone profits, and make enough extra to justify the risk involved. This is an incredibly stupid business model unless there are barriers to market entrance preventing other firms from entering the market after you jack up your prices.
mcg wrote:
LKL wrote:
Again, if the producer of the better product is driven out of business by a huge company that is manipulating prices, the consumers lose out in the long term. Why is that difficult for you to grasp?
Do you have any evidence to suggest that this a common practice? If I am understanding you correctly, you are worried that firms will sell stuff at a loss in the hopes that they will be able to jack up prices enough in the future to recover their previous losses, recover their forgone profits, and make enough extra to justify the risk involved. This is an incredibly stupid business model unless there are barriers to market entrance preventing other firms from entering the market after you jack up your prices.It is called a loss leader.
The practice is so common it features in the 'business studies for dummies' book.
DC wrote:
mcg wrote:
LKL wrote:
Again, if the producer of the better product is driven out of business by a huge company that is manipulating prices, the consumers lose out in the long term. Why is that difficult for you to grasp?
Do you have any evidence to suggest that this a common practice? If I am understanding you correctly, you are worried that firms will sell stuff at a loss in the hopes that they will be able to jack up prices enough in the future to recover their previous losses, recover their forgone profits, and make enough extra to justify the risk involved. This is an incredibly stupid business model unless there are barriers to market entrance preventing other firms from entering the market after you jack up your prices.It is called a loss leader.
The practice is so common it features in the 'business studies for dummies' book.
