Horror of Abortion!

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Cornflake
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16 Oct 2011, 5:52 pm

Gedrene wrote:

But the fact remains that you tried to use a technical definition

I rather thought I succeeded.

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Gedrene
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16 Oct 2011, 5:54 pm

Cornflake wrote:

Gedrene wrote:

Cornflake wrote:

Joker wrote:

A 24 day old fetus has a heart beat :wink:

And so does a 24 year-old in a persistent vegetative state after a road traffic accident.
Heartbeat <> "person".

A 24 year old in a persistent vegitative state is still a person.

I disagree - it's something which was once a "person", but whatever it was that made it a "person" is no longer functional/present.

A persistent vegitative state is a disorder of consciousness not of some loss of personhood as you are trying to put it. A person like that is still alive, still a human, and still if recovered a person. Persistent just means that it is not capable of being resolved without some medical attention that we don't know how to give.

Cornflake wrote:

Rather like a foetus doesn't yet have whatever it takes to make it a "person".

Yet a foetus lacks nothing that makes it human whatsoever in any degree except that it happens to have not been born. it's conceived, which is the important part. But it aint born.

Cornflake wrote:

Gedrene wrote:

One should only die from old age and because they ask to die.

Ideally, yes - but s**t has a habit of happening.

That's why I used the word should. Whether something bad happens is not an excuse for other bad things happening. That's a slippery slope fallacy.

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16 Oct 2011, 5:55 pm

Cornflake wrote:

Gedrene wrote:

But the fact remains that you tried to use a technical definition

I rather thought I succeeded.

And you selectively quoted me there. I said that no, you didn't meet the criteria for it. Because a Foetus isn't a different species from its parent. That's the technical side of it. And you failed to take account of it.

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16 Oct 2011, 6:00 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:

Aborted fetuses are NOTHING IN COMPARISON TO HOLOCAUST VICTIMS. When I think "Holocaust victim," I generally think gassing, burning flesh, getting shot for no reason whatsoever, and heinous experimentation on human beings. Since I believe I do know something about the Holocaust, you would think that at one time when I thought about abortion the Holocaust would enter my mind as well, but it just has not. Once. It is not even a genocide, since no exceptions happened during a genocide, and I do not think you are that inhuman to tell a mother that she has to risk dying in order to keep the child.

What you forget is that Joker said that they looked like holocaust victims. And then the person he was arguing with agreed. I see that you went on an argument of is like and not looks like. An honest mistake. You also have people who disagree with lack of comparison. And one of them is pro-choice.

HerrGrimm wrote:

Just to let you know before you respond, I do not like the thought of abortion and prefer for it not to happen. Please note I just mentioned your reference to the Holocaust, and keep your response to that if you can.

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16 Oct 2011, 6:01 pm

A fetus evolves into a human being so by killing the fetus your killing the potential human being from being born.

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16 Oct 2011, 6:02 pm

This thread should be aborted...

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Cornflake
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16 Oct 2011, 6:03 pm

Gedrene wrote:

A persistent vegitative state is a disorder of consciousness not of some loss of personhood as you are trying to put it.

And so is the "personality" or a foetus. One is disordered through accident, the other is disordered because it has yet to be formed and exist.
Both are incapable of interaction or independent existence.

Quote:

A person like that is still alive, still a human, and still if recovered a person.

And if not - what then?

Quote:

Cornflake wrote:

Rather like a foetus doesn't yet have whatever it takes to make it a "person".

Yet a foetus lacks nothing that makes it human whatsoever in any degree except that it happens to have not been born.

I like to think that "human" involves just a bit more than a physical resemblance to some standard organic model - and at this stage, a foetus is just a miniature version of that.

Quote:

Cornflake wrote:

Gedrene wrote:

One should only die from old age and because they ask to die.

Ideally, yes - but s**t has a habit of happening.

That's why I used the word should. Whether something bad happens is not an excuse for other bad things happening.

And that's why I used the word "ideally", and you're extrapolating things I haven't said.

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16 Oct 2011, 6:04 pm

Vigilans wrote:

This thread should be aborted...

The practice of abortion should be aborted :wink:

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16 Oct 2011, 6:04 pm

Vigilans wrote:

This thread should be aborted...

Yep - and that's why I'm hopping off this little ride now. It was pointless from the get-go.

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16 Oct 2011, 6:06 pm

Joker wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This thread should be aborted...

The practice of abortion should be aborted :wink:

So then you are pro-choice

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16 Oct 2011, 6:18 pm

Cornflake wrote:

Gedrene wrote:

A persistent vegitative state is a disorder of consciousness not of some loss of personhood as you are trying to put it.

And? Quite a few people are incapable of an independent existence. Children, the mentally ill, the ret*d. Are we to kill them as and when we desire? No. The only change is that with PVS and foetuses they are fed through a tube rather than given food that they pick up and eat themselves.

Cornflake wrote:

Quote:

A person like that is still alive, still a human, and still if recovered a person.

And if not - what then?

Then there is still the chance of them being recovered. Medicine doesn't stand still.

Cornflake wrote:

Quote:

Cornflake wrote:

Rather like a foetus doesn't yet have whatever it takes to make it a "person".

Yet a foetus lacks nothing that makes it human whatsoever in any degree except that it happens to have not been born.

I like to think that "human" involves just a bit more than a physical resemblance to some standard organic model - and at this stage, a foetus is just a miniature version of that.

Like a child is a miniature version of most humans. And Fetuses just that but smaller and in a womb. But we aren't advocating killing children are we?

Cornflake wrote:

Quote:

Cornflake wrote:

Gedrene wrote:

One should only die from old age and because they ask to die.

Ideally, yes - but s**t has a habit of happening.

That's why I used the word should. Whether something bad happens is not an excuse for other bad things happening.

And that's why I used the word "ideally", and you're extrapolating things I haven't said.

Fortunately I have done no such thing, since you have told me yourself about PVS. That I think comes under your s**t has a habit of happening. Killing a person in PVS who hasn't asked for it is just that again.

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16 Oct 2011, 6:19 pm

Cornflake wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This thread should be aborted...

Yep - and that's why I'm hopping off this little ride now. It was pointless from the get-go.

It isn't pointless at all! These are lives we are talking about. Why are they pointless?

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16 Oct 2011, 6:33 pm

Gedrene wrote:

Cornflake wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

This thread should be aborted...

Yep - and that's why I'm hopping off this little ride now. It was pointless from the get-go.

It isn't pointless at all! These are lives we are talking about. Why are they pointless?

because we have been over these arguments into great detail with a lot of sources involved multiple times.

again use the search feature of the website.

consciousness is what differntiates us from our individual cells,
is killing sperm the same issue?

also please note that when we talk a foetus it is physically impossible for it to have a consciousness before at the very least week 20, in reality it is 8 weeks or more after this point but the process begins at week twenty.

wanna know why, search i have wasted enough time reiterating the same basic point, which people conveniently ignore.

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16 Oct 2011, 6:45 pm

Gedrene wrote:

I beg to differ. The point of saying they look like Holocaust victims is an attempt to associate the horrors of the Holocaust with abortion. The 'abortion is like the Holocaust' applies here, I believe. I have attended anti-abortion presentations in the States where this is employed in such a manner.

EDIT: To help people out, the last thread about abortion was this one. You just need to read up to like page 20 or so, because it repeats until the end. No, I am serious, it really does.

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16 Oct 2011, 7:01 pm

Okay, given that the headline is so needlessly sensationalist (honestly, if you have "the horror" in front of something, going over the top with an exclamation mark generally indicates a hyperbolic parody) I assumed this thread would be satire. Thanks for disappointing (or, rather, demonstrating Poe's Law).

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16 Oct 2011, 7:24 pm

The Religious Right teaches that if you have an abortion that you are a baby eater but if you keep the baby then you are a welfare queen.

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