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Asp-Z
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07 Nov 2011, 1:35 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Yes I see how it works, I just think I would prefer a system not based on your ability to compete and step on others to get to the top. Why does it always have to be about beating someone? So in short I basically dislike the way the entire system is set up, I think it takes away from what humans could accomplish if only they still had a sense of wanting to make the world better, connecting with their fellow humans and maybe working together.......but nope its much better to take out the competition and come out with the product first.


If you can't create good products, your business has no reason to exist anyway, and if you don't improve your products, your company will have to shut down. If the government makes crappy products, they'll just keep on using resources to make them.

The competition doesn't sound nice to a hippie socialist who'd rather we spent all day holding hands while dancing around rainbows, but back here in the real world, it means we all get the best products possible for the best price possible.

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What I meant with who pays the government.......is obviously people in charge of powerful corporations can influence government policy because the government gets something out of it. Another big one is pharmacutical companies......and medicinal marijuana I don't think it's a stretch to say these companies play a role in the federal governments desire to start fighting it and trying to intervene in the states it's legal.


Surely it would benefit pharmaceutical companies if they could sell marijuana?

But yes, there is corruption, and there is corruption in socialist governments too, just not from companies. Again, what's your point?



Sweetleaf
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07 Nov 2011, 1:42 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Yes I see how it works, I just think I would prefer a system not based on your ability to compete and step on others to get to the top. Why does it always have to be about beating someone? So in short I basically dislike the way the entire system is set up, I think it takes away from what humans could accomplish if only they still had a sense of wanting to make the world better, connecting with their fellow humans and maybe working together.......but nope its much better to take out the competition and come out with the product first.


If you can't create good products, your business has no reason to exist anyway, and if you don't improve your products, your company will have to shut down. If the government makes crappy products, they'll just keep on using resources to make them.

The competition doesn't sound nice to a hippie socialist who'd rather we spent all day holding hands while dancing around rainbows, but back here in the real world, it means we all get the best products possible for the best price possible.

Quote:
What I meant with who pays the government.......is obviously people in charge of powerful corporations can influence government policy because the government gets something out of it. Another big one is pharmacutical companies......and medicinal marijuana I don't think it's a stretch to say these companies play a role in the federal governments desire to start fighting it and trying to intervene in the states it's legal.


Surely it would benefit pharmaceutical companies if they could sell marijuana?

But yes, there is corruption, and there is corruption in socialist governments too, just not from companies. Again, what's your point?


Well quite frankly the real world sucks then.......I am not much for holding hands but damn right I would rather dance around rainbows with a bunch of 'hippies' than contribute to a system that is all about getting to the top and being 'rewarded' regardless of who you hurt on the way. That probably will not change.....no amount of medication or CBT is going to change my mind.

And no the point is medical marijuana threatens deadly pharmacuticals like opiate derived pain killers, so it is in their intrest if the feds start cracking down on it in the states that have made it legal or are looking to make it legal. My point is those with lots of money and power can influence the government in ways that are not good for the majority of the population.



Asp-Z
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07 Nov 2011, 1:49 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well quite frankly the real world sucks then.......I am not much for holding hands but damn right I would rather dance around rainbows with a bunch of 'hippies' than contribute to a system that is all about getting to the top and being 'rewarded' regardless of who you hurt on the way. That probably will not change.....no amount of medication or CBT is going to change my mind.


Yes, the real world sucks, and so does capitalism, but it's by far the best system we have.

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And no the point is medical marijuana threatens deadly pharmacuticals like opiate derived pain killers, so it is in their intrest if the feds start cracking down on it in the states that have made it legal or are looking to make it legal. My point is those with lots of money and power can influence the government in ways that are not good for the majority of the population.


Not really, they'd just start selling weed instead. Their profits would probably increase.

Those with power can influence the government in ways which won't necessarily be good for the population under socialism too.



Sweetleaf
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07 Nov 2011, 2:06 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well quite frankly the real world sucks then.......I am not much for holding hands but damn right I would rather dance around rainbows with a bunch of 'hippies' than contribute to a system that is all about getting to the top and being 'rewarded' regardless of who you hurt on the way. That probably will not change.....no amount of medication or CBT is going to change my mind.


Yes, the real world sucks, and so does capitalism, but it's by far the best system we have.

Quote:
And no the point is medical marijuana threatens deadly pharmacuticals like opiate derived pain killers, so it is in their intrest if the feds start cracking down on it in the states that have made it legal or are looking to make it legal. My point is those with lots of money and power can influence the government in ways that are not good for the majority of the population.


Not really, they'd just start selling weed instead. Their profits would probably increase.

Those with power can influence the government in ways which won't necessarily be good for the population under socialism too.


Ok so if the real world and capitalism suck, why shouldn't people complain?

Also, the pharmacutical companies can't just start selling weed........because its not FDA approved so the next best option is to prevent it from being an alternative to their medications. Also in socialism if it was actual socialism you would have less of that taking place because the mindset within socialism is different.....its not based on 'compete! or die'. But yes there can be corruption in every economic/government system that exists in the world.



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07 Nov 2011, 2:15 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok so if the real world and capitalism suck, why shouldn't people complain?


Because the current system is the best one, as I already stated.

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Also, the pharmacutical companies can't just start selling weed........because its not FDA approved so the next best option is to prevent it from being an alternative to their medications. Also in socialism if it was actual socialism you would have less of that taking place because the mindset within socialism is different.....its not based on 'compete! or die'. But yes there can be corruption in every economic/government system that exists in the world.


If it became legal, surely they could get it approved if they have so much influence?

But in socialism, there'd be one body making all the decisions, and one of those could still be to make weed illegal. Socialism does not equal freedom.



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07 Nov 2011, 2:24 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok so if the real world and capitalism suck, why shouldn't people complain?


Because the current system is the best one, as I already stated.

Quote:
Also, the pharmacutical companies can't just start selling weed........because its not FDA approved so the next best option is to prevent it from being an alternative to their medications. Also in socialism if it was actual socialism you would have less of that taking place because the mindset within socialism is different.....its not based on 'compete! or die'. But yes there can be corruption in every economic/government system that exists in the world.


If it became legal, surely they could get it approved if they have so much influence?

But in socialism, there'd be one body making all the decisions, and one of those could still be to make weed illegal. Socialism does not equal freedom.


Well that is sort of your opinion that its the best system........but besides that I should just accept it and conform because its the best system we have while ignoring all the negatives? One way things are changed is by people expressing their disagreement for the current state of things so I see no problem with the protesting.

And also I am not arguing we should have a socialist system, I am quite simply stating what we have now is screwing over most of the world so it is likely to come to an end.



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07 Nov 2011, 4:11 pm

We can not possibly know that capitalism ,especially the form we have in america, is the best possible system.
Scandinavians are happier, the french live longer, the dutch are taller (a mark of childhood nutrition).
This best possible system thing smacks of panglossianism.

with that said our system -said in a knowing yankeecenric fashion- is better than what they got in North Korea.
(but really what isn't?)


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Asp-Z
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07 Nov 2011, 4:18 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
Scandinavians are happier, the french live longer, the dutch are taller (a mark of childhood nutrition).


None of those are socialist... I don't get how that's meant to back up your point in any way. If anything it's a point to me.



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07 Nov 2011, 4:20 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Scandinavians are happier, the french live longer, the dutch are taller (a mark of childhood nutrition).


None of those are socialist... I don't get how that's meant to back up your point in any way. If anything it's a point to me.


Scandinavia tends to be more socialist than the U.S and I would argue their system is more appealing than ours. Though I don't live there so I can't say for sure how I would feel about it if I did.



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07 Nov 2011, 4:22 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Scandinavians are happier, the french live longer, the dutch are taller (a mark of childhood nutrition).


None of those are socialist... I don't get how that's meant to back up your point in any way. If anything it's a point to me.


Scandinavia tends to be more socialist than the U.S and I would argue their system is more appealing than ours. Though I don't live there so I can't say for sure how I would feel about it if I did.


It's not actually a socialist state, though, even if you do think their system is "more socialist".



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07 Nov 2011, 4:24 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Scandinavians are happier, the french live longer, the dutch are taller (a mark of childhood nutrition).


None of those are socialist... I don't get how that's meant to back up your point in any way. If anything it's a point to me.


Scandinavia tends to be more socialist than the U.S and I would argue their system is more appealing than ours. Though I don't live there so I can't say for sure how I would feel about it if I did.


It's not actually a socialist state, though, even if you do think their system is "more socialist".


Where did I say it was a socialist state?.......I said they are more socialist than the U.S, meaning they lean more towards socialism and we lean more towards capitalism.



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07 Nov 2011, 4:29 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Scandinavians are happier, the french live longer, the dutch are taller (a mark of childhood nutrition).


None of those are socialist... I don't get how that's meant to back up your point in any way. If anything it's a point to me.


Scandinavia tends to be more socialist than the U.S and I would argue their system is more appealing than ours. Though I don't live there so I can't say for sure how I would feel about it if I did.


It's not actually a socialist state, though, even if you do think their system is "more socialist".


Where did I say it was a socialist state?.......I said they are more socialist than the U.S, meaning they lean more towards socialism and we lean more towards capitalism.


Exactly. Essentially, they just use a different type of capitalism to the US. But it's still capitalism.

Remember, I never argued that the US has the best capitalism. I couldn't care less about the US.



Sweetleaf
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07 Nov 2011, 4:33 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Scandinavians are happier, the french live longer, the dutch are taller (a mark of childhood nutrition).


None of those are socialist... I don't get how that's meant to back up your point in any way. If anything it's a point to me.


Scandinavia tends to be more socialist than the U.S and I would argue their system is more appealing than ours. Though I don't live there so I can't say for sure how I would feel about it if I did.


It's not actually a socialist state, though, even if you do think their system is "more socialist".


Where did I say it was a socialist state?.......I said they are more socialist than the U.S, meaning they lean more towards socialism and we lean more towards capitalism.


Exactly. Essentially, they just use a different type of capitalism to the US. But it's still capitalism.

Remember, I never argued that the US has the best capitalism. I couldn't care less about the US.


No they just have more elements of socialism.......not sure Scandinavian countries are considered capitalist actually.



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07 Nov 2011, 4:56 pm

Communism is such an ideal system that it is called Heaven on Earth and rightfully so. If Communism does not work it is only because people are so greedy and selfish.



Asp-Z
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07 Nov 2011, 5:07 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Communism is such an ideal system that it is called Heaven on Earth and rightfully so. If Communism does not work it is only because people are so greedy and selfish.


And in theory, I should have unlimited sex and cookies. WHERE IS MY UNLIMITED SEX AND COOKIES?!

As you say, "ideal" systems do not work in the crappy real world, so we have to make the best of what we've got, and capitalism gives us that. It's really quite simple. And yes, people are very greedy and selfish. It's how we survived evolution.



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07 Nov 2011, 5:22 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Communism is such an ideal system that it is called Heaven on Earth and rightfully so. If Communism does not work it is only because people are so greedy and selfish.


exactly.