This PPR forum could be enjoyable, but it's oten not.

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The post was all-inclusive, referring to anyone who claims to have a personal relationship with God, who implies that they know what God is thinking, who assume that prayer solves anything, who blame the non-believer for not believing without valid material evidence, who blame those who need a miracle from God the most for the lack of of a miracle, or who assume an air of smug superiority over those of us who see religion for what it is - a means for religious leaders to "guilt-trip" their followers into providing monetary support in exchange for a weekly pep-talk and sing-along.

OK.

And I'm sorry for screwing up your handle. Having trouble seeing the fnords.

I agree and I'm an agnostic. The thing I don't understand is why someone needs to make an issue of their atheism. If someone wishes to have a theological discussion, then for Pete's sake, let them. There's really no need or point to get on just to say you're an atheist. There is especially no need to tell the people trying to have a discussion that they are irrational. People react to being told they are fools. Yes, of course you have a right to, but why bother? Why do you need to? It derails the thread very time. I personally am interested in aspects of early Christianity and how they relate to Eastern thought and what we are learning about quantum physics. I would like to discuss these things without having the thread turn into a pissing contest.

Yes, I would love to have see inside the basket that Jesus fed the multitude with. What was going on inside there? Could you see what was happening? Not that the basket itself was special, just what it was used for.

That's the kind of stuff I would enjoy, or when Moses struck the rock and the water came out, was it a supernatural, or more a miracle of timing, the water had worn it away from inside, maybe another 10 minutes and it might have broken through on it's own, these are things I think are engaging.

If you knew that faith and obedience in and to Jesus was the only way to save oneself from eternal torment and you came across two Hindu, discussing the amount of jewelry each of them believes Vishnu capable of wearing, would you remain silent and, through your inaction, consign them to this heinous fate? Would you think ill of someone who would?

I would.

On a completely different level, this is a forum for individuals on the autism spectrum. Chalk most of it up to "Excuse me. I couldn't help but overhear you discussing this topic that has nothing to do with me and felt the need to tell you that you're wrong."

I hope there will soon come the day when those of us who do not share certain beliefs will be free to share our own beliefs without being told to "Just stop it". After all, this is the "Politics, Philosophy, and Religion" forum, and not the "Politics, Philosophy, and Religion According to Shrox" forum.

I may be misunderstanding you, here, but didn't you start this thread expressing frustration in people pointing out their disbelief of the supernatural explanations of such miracles? Or was it just that they were being dicks about it?

I tend to think they are metaphors for a larger spiritual or metaphysical truth . Another possibility of the point of a miracle is to tell us that physical reality is malleable and that our thoughts create our reality.
Have you read any Joseph Campbell, shrox? The Power of Myth is very good. It's a transcript of the PBS series of a dialogue between Campbell and Bill Moyers.

btw- I hate church. That's just me. Church makes me itch. The only thing I can tolerate is a Friends Meeting, where there's no talking. I like the Friends a great deal.

bingo.

The whole point of a miracle is to affirm the existence of an otherwise unprovable miracle-worker.

An example of a miracle would be for every amputee to suddenly regenerate his or her lost limbs.

But there is evidence to indicate that God Hates Amputees.

I'll admit that i ultimately got pretty dickish in that thread about knowing god.

But i started out, first three posts, trying to address the question that was being asked.

It became apparent that the thread was not for discussion but for preaching.

Yeah. For some reason, when we're dicks about stuff, people get a bit turned off.

Just remember that different people, being different, by definition, have differing sensibilities and are offended by different things. Some of us are offended by claims that humans evolved from earlier life forms over millions of years. Some of us are offended by supernatural claims that we see as hindering our species, as a whole. Luckily, there are places we can come together to bicker about such differences.

Though, sometimes, people are just dicks about it.

It never does.

One can leave PPR for weeks or months at a time... come back... and see the same threads are still here.... over and over and over and over again.... .... ....

I don't believe that. Furthermore I have learned over the years that if you want to persuade someone to your point of view, insulting them is ultimately counter productive. I ascribe to no particular religion, I would even hesitate to identify as a Christian. I just think people should be able to have a discussion without being interrupted by comments that don't really add anything to the discussion in particular. If someone wants to have a discussion about Jewish mysticism (another interest), what possible contribution could there be to getting on just to state that you're an atheist?


That's the real issue isn't it?

Actually, theological topics do get discussed intelligently on PPR and I don't comment on those threads because I'm too uninformed.

Most of the time, religion is brought up in a way more like Ragtime's thread about knowing God (or generally about how atheists bully Christians). In that context, saying what you think about God and religion, even if the OP doesn't want to hear it, is perfectly valid.

Besides, I think it's important for people who think the Abrahamic God is actually benevolent, to hear opinions that differ from their own. I wouldn't dare try to convert anyone to atheism but I'm so strongly convinced that God is not Good these days, I feel a moral compulsion to say so.

If you want to teach science in a science classroom what possible contribution could there be by deliberately taking over an education so that you can illegally attempt to force the teaching of religious dogma?

I'm afraid the fundie lunatics stopped playing nice and reasonable a long time before the atheists decided to start annoying them.