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Robdemanc
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02 Dec 2011, 4:44 pm

I thought all Christians hated jews, and all muslims hated christians and jews, and all christians hate muslims and all jews hate christians and muslims, and all hindus hate muslims, and muslims hate hindus and sikhs......



Kraichgauer
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02 Dec 2011, 5:40 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

that was symptomatic of Luther's unfortunate Antisemitism in his later years, in which he advocated exiling practitioners of Judaism, but defended Jewish converts from persecution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Still making excuses for that proto-Nazi Martin Luther?

Here is a document (written by a Lutheran, btw.) about your buddy Martin Luther.

http://www2.luthersem.edu/word&world/Ar ... endrix.pdf

He was a Jew hater of the first magnitude and a thoroughly bad and unbalanced person. Perhaps his madness and evil was related to his bowel disorder.

ruveyn


UUHHHHHH - - if you cared to notice, your source in fact had been written by a Lutheran theologian, and was stating very much the same thing that I had.
I must come to the conclusion that you hadn't read your own source material (or at least not very closely), or that your own Anti-Lutheran notions have blinded you to the actual meaning of the written material.
By the way, in case you had not read the material, the author states Luther's opposition to Jews was with their "Judaism," (which is not to justify it) not any sort of racial Antisemitism of the Nazis.
Please ruveyn, don't surrender your keen intellectual edge to petty emotionalism. Regardless, I still like ya.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



munch15a
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09 Dec 2011, 10:40 am

It’s a very complex problem took me half a year to scratch the surface there was an element of the church trying to raise anti Jewish sentiment but that was just one thing strange as it may seam the constant Christen Muslim wars had an effect causing Christians to become more jingoist that was a major reason for the Spanish inquisition also Jew’s tended to do jobs like money lenders or l as we would call them banks this made the unpopular

Often kings would place them under slightly different laws in regards to tax policy also the Jews themselves liked to segregate them selves and at the risk of sounding like I’m blaming the victim this had an effect whereby it was much easier to raise anti Jewish feeling as they had separate community also there where a few very wealthy Jews that had trade empires and various kings wanted there money in order to gain support they would often just make up lies about Jews and the last thing that comes to mind I forgot his name but there was a Jew who converted and became a monk in order to impress his new masters he made up a lot of lies that stuck to this day like all Jews secretly talk and are trying to gain power



ruveyn
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09 Dec 2011, 2:55 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
By the way, in case you had not read the material, the author states Luther's opposition to Jews was with their "Judaism," (which is not to justify it) not any sort of racial Antisemitism of the Nazis.
Please ruveyn, don't surrender your keen intellectual edge to petty emotionalism. Regardless, I still like ya.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Some difference that is. Herr Luther (the proto Nazi) still wanted Jews to burn and die. But for theological rather than racial reasons. I am totally underwhelmed by the distinction. You buddy M.L. was a very Bad Man. He needed Jesus more than Jesus need him.

ruveyn



ruveyn
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09 Dec 2011, 3:31 pm

codarac wrote:

Atheist anti-semitism:

"This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people, a kind of organic destructive collective parasite, going beyond not only the frontiers of states,


Two of those "blood suckers" made polio a thing of the past. And they did not get rich from it either.

ruveyn



codarac
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09 Dec 2011, 6:26 pm

munch15a wrote:
It’s a very complex problem took me half a year to scratch the surface there was an element of the church trying to raise anti Jewish sentiment but that was just one thing strange as it may seam the constant Christen Muslim wars had an effect causing Christians to become more jingoist that was a major reason for the Spanish inquisition also Jew’s tended to do jobs like money lenders or l as we would call them banks this made the unpopular

Often kings would place them under slightly different laws in regards to tax policy also the Jews themselves liked to segregate them selves and at the risk of sounding like I’m blaming the victim this had an effect whereby it was much easier to raise anti Jewish feeling as they had separate community also there where a few very wealthy Jews that had trade empires and various kings wanted there money in order to gain support they would often just make up lies about Jews and the last thing that comes to mind I forgot his name but there was a Jew who converted and became a monk in order to impress his new masters he made up a lot of lies that stuck to this day like all Jews secretly talk and are trying to gain power


Was the monk you are talking about Johannes Pfefferkorn perhaps?

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Pfefferkorn

Early life

Born a Jew, possibly in Nuremberg,[3] Pfefferkorn moved to Cologne after many years of wandering.[3] After committing a burglary, he was imprisoned and released in 1504.[4] He converted to Christianity in 1505 and was baptized[3] together with his family.[3]

Anti-Jewish writings

Pfefferkorn became an assistant to the prior of the Dominican friar order at Cologne, Jacob van Hoogstraaten, and under the auspices of the Dominicans published several libelous pamphlets in which he tried to demonstrate that Jewish religious writings were hostile to Christianity.[4] Pfefferkorn had a limited knowledge of the subject.[4]

In Der Judenspiegel (Cologne, 1507), he demanded that the Jews should give up the practice of usury, work for their living, attend Christian sermons, and do away with the Books of the Talmud.[3] On the other hand, he condemned the persecution of the Jews as an obstacle to their conversion, and, in a pamphlet, Warnungsspiegel,[4] defended them against charges of murdering Christian children for ritual purposes.[3] In Warnungsspiegel, he professed to be a friend of the Jews, and desired to introduce Christianity among them for their own good.[4] He urged them to convince the Christian world that the Jews do not need Christian blood for their religious rites and advocated seizing the Talmud by force from them.[4] "The causes which hinder the Jews from becoming Christians," he wrote, "are three: first, usury; second, because they are not compelled to attend Christian churches to hear the sermons; and third, because they honor the Talmud."[4]

Bitterly opposed by the Jews on account of this work, he virulently attacked them in: Wie die blinden Jüden ihr Ostern halten (1508); Judenbeicht (1508); and Judenfeind (1509).[3] In his third pamphlet he contradicted what he had written earlier and insisted that every Jew considers it a good deed to kill, or at least to mock, a Christian; therefore he deemed it the duty of all true Christians to expel the Jews from all Christian lands; if the law should forbid such a deed, they do not need to obey it: "It is the duty of the people to ask permission of the rulers to take from the Jews all their books except the Bible...."[4] He preached that Jewish children should be taken away from their parents and educated as Catholics. In conclusion he wrote: "Who afflicts the Jews is doing the will of God, and who seeks their benefit will incur damnation."[4]

In the fourth pamphlet, Pfefferkorn declared that the only way to get rid of the Jews was either to expel or enslave them; the first thing to be done was to collect all the copies of the Talmud found among the Jews and to burn them.[4]



Tequila
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09 Dec 2011, 6:47 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Jealousy and the Catholic church.


a) Why? Is it the "Jewish bankers" thing and;
b) Thanks for giving me another reason to dislike the Catholic Church. :)



Tequila
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09 Dec 2011, 6:49 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
I thought all Christians hated jews, and all muslims hated christians and jews, and all christians hate muslims and all jews hate christians and muslims, and all hindus hate muslims, and muslims hate hindus and sikhs......


No, the extremist Muslims hate anyone who isn't Muslim and most people who are Muslims.

Normal people - whether Muslim or not - just get on with daily life like writing inane crap on messageboards. Like Boo here.



pandabear
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09 Dec 2011, 7:00 pm

Napoleon is often regarded as a liberator of European Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_and_the_Jews



ruveyn
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09 Dec 2011, 7:01 pm

pandabear wrote:
Napoleon is often regarded as a liberator of European Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_and_the_Jews


He didn't want a nation within his nation. He wanted everyone in France to be French. It makes rather good sense.

ruveyn



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09 Dec 2011, 7:52 pm

Tequila wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Jealousy and the Catholic church.


a) Why? Is it the "Jewish bankers" thing and;
b) Thanks for giving me another reason to dislike the Catholic Church. :)


a) It's the Jewish money-lender thing, mainly
b) It's hard to imagine now, but the Church really did control every aspect of peoples' lives in Medieval Europe (even what days you could have sex on) - and especially who they wanted people to hate. Don't underestimate the usefulness of a scapegoat in maintaining power. What Torquemada did to the conversos was just as much about terrorising regular Spanish people as it was about 'purifying' the faith.

Plus, having someone living in your country who doesn't believe in the mythology that justifies your power and existence...well, you can imagine how well that would go down.


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Kraichgauer
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09 Dec 2011, 9:26 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
By the way, in case you had not read the material, the author states Luther's opposition to Jews was with their "Judaism," (which is not to justify it) not any sort of racial Antisemitism of the Nazis.
Please ruveyn, don't surrender your keen intellectual edge to petty emotionalism. Regardless, I still like ya.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Some difference that is. Herr Luther (the proto Nazi) still wanted Jews to burn and die. But for theological rather than racial reasons. I am totally underwhelmed by the distinction. You buddy M.L. was a very Bad Man. He needed Jesus more than Jesus need him.

ruveyn


Yes, Luther needed Jesus more than Jesus needed him - Luther absolutely believed that.
And Luther was bad - as are all people are, one way or another. Which is why Luther - and all other believers - need Jesus.
And while Luther's Antisemitic rants were indefensible, I hardly think he wanted Jews to die.
And unlike the Nazis, Luther's Antisemitism was never put into action by himself or anyone else. That very much distinguishes him from the Nazis.
I think I've taken your Anti-Lutheran jabs with good humor. I suspect if I turned the tables and said nasty things about Jews (which, mind you, I would not do - but you know that) you wouldn't be so charitable with your response.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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09 Dec 2011, 9:31 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, Luther needed Jesus more than Jesus needed him - Luther absolutely believed that.


Your buddy M.L. characterized himself as a pus filled bag of worms. Given his bowel affliction, that was not far from the truth. There is a lesson to be learned here. Never put a person who cannot take a decent sh*t in charge of a church organization. His bowels ruled his life. He started his career as a heretic by placing 95 feces on the gates of the Cathedral at Wurms.

ruveyn



Kraichgauer
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09 Dec 2011, 10:06 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, Luther needed Jesus more than Jesus needed him - Luther absolutely believed that.


Your buddy M.L. characterized himself as a pus filled bag of worms. Given his bowel affliction, that was not far from the truth. There is a lesson to be learned here. Never put a person who cannot take a decent sh*t in charge of a church organization. His bowels ruled his life. He started his career as a heretic by placing 95 feces on the gates of the Cathedral at Wurms.

ruveyn


If you really want to know the truth, Luther would laugh out loud over what you wrote, as he had a very earth sense of humor.
And Luther had ended up in the leadership position because he had taken one for the team, and got excommunicated, though he was hardly the only German theologian at the time speaking out against Rome.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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10 Dec 2011, 1:18 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

If you really want to know the truth, Luther would laugh out loud over what you wrote, as he had a very earth sense of humor.
And Luther had ended up in the leadership position because he had taken one for the team, and got excommunicated, though he was hardly the only German theologian at the time speaking out against Rome.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


He was the fearless leader of the anti-church Freikorps. A kind of religious Brown Shirt movement.

I was wrong about one thing. He shat on the gates of the Wirtenberg Cathedral. He was tried at Wurms.

ruveyn



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10 Dec 2011, 2:31 am

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

If you really want to know the truth, Luther would laugh out loud over what you wrote, as he had a very earth sense of humor.
And Luther had ended up in the leadership position because he had taken one for the team, and got excommunicated, though he was hardly the only German theologian at the time speaking out against Rome.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


He was the fearless leader of the anti-church Freikorps. A kind of religious Brown Shirt movement.

I was wrong about one thing. He shat on the gates of the Wirtenberg Cathedral. He was tried at Wurms.

ruveyn


I think you know as well as I do that the early Protestants were nothing like the Freikorps or the Brown Shirts. As a matter of fact, the church of Rome (not meaning to offend any Catholics here) had done much more in the centuries before and after Luther to persecute Jews. In fact, before Luther began having erratic thoughts and behavior in his later years, he had come to the defense of Jews, writing how the Jews didn't deserve the violence the church had committed against them. And as I had already stated, Luther never put his hateful writings about Jews into action. But I'm sure you're aware of all that.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer