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Tequila
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26 Dec 2011, 7:56 am

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I personally would rather eat healthy food thats not packed full of preservatives, whatever chemicals they feed to animals used for food or spray on vegtables


They do it to make things cheaper and - generally - safe.

Would you apply the concept of discriminatory healthcare? Would you tell people - through government advertisements, taxes and general peer pressure - that they cannot eat such-and-such? If I eat burgers and drink Buckfast all day, will you deny me medical treatment if I should become ill?

And what about salt? Is salt the new menace? The other problem I have with government regulation and nannying is that frequently it is restrictive and overbearing and inhibits progress, as well as being occasionally downright harmful. I do think you're looking at socialist systems with red-tinted glasses I'm afraid.

Sweetleaf wrote:
I think I am more into taking it further and creating a classless society with no government.


Expect a particularly nasty kind of Mafia rule to take hold then.



donnie_darko
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26 Dec 2011, 9:36 am

Socialism has its problems, but my problem with capitalism is that it is based on unsustainable, infinite growth. I don't think that is feasible on a planet with a limited geography.



Tequila
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26 Dec 2011, 9:42 am

donnie_darko wrote:
I don't think that is feasible on a planet with a limited geography.


You must be joking. Have you ever been to Gibraltar? Or Hong Kong? Lots of people live there in a very tight space. Most people don't live anywhere near that close to one another. I submit your argument is bunkum.



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26 Dec 2011, 10:23 am

In socialism I wonder who would be willing to do the dirty jobs Would intellectuals and woman be forced to work done mines and sueage. Or would socialism decide that it would be sexually discriminate.

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26 Dec 2011, 10:59 am

ruveyn wrote:
Oodain wrote:

no socialism is based on a desire to function as a whole,

here it means a truly equal oppertunity and not equality in itself.


The only proof of equality of "opportunity" is equality of outcome.

With people of unequal ability and inclination there can be no equality of opportunity. The strongest and the best will always get more.

The only thing socialism can do is equalize mediocrity and misery.

Have you ever read the legend of Procrustes?

ruveyn


by that logic I guess we need people on the bottom for the 'strongest' and 'best' to step on and use to work their way up to the top, what a disgusting society.


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Sweetleaf
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26 Dec 2011, 11:00 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Unfortunately these bosses don't want me working for anyone else either so they blackball me by taking away my Journey Level certificate.


Wait how can the boss of a job revoke your certificate? are they the one who gave it to you.......if not I don't think that is allowed.


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26 Dec 2011, 11:03 am

Alrigt so does anyone have any good reasons why humans should be divided by class?.......I would not say humans are equal as everyone is different and has different strenghts and weaknesses but I don't think that is any reason for all the class division.

Why should the amount of material things and money someone has earn them respect?


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26 Dec 2011, 11:07 am

One thing that's commonly forgotten is that the only countries where "socialism" hasn't gone completely down in flames are countries that were fairly wealthy and ethnically homogenous to begin with -- like Sweden. By definition, any socialist experiment larger than a communal farm requires delegation of authority to something resembling a government. The more diverse the governed become, the more impossible it becomes to get anything approaching a consensus, and the more completely detached those in government become from the wants of those who are being governed.

Case in point: somewhere in Ukraine, there was a factory cranking out Nixie Tubes up until about 10 years ago. Nixie tubes are basically a tube with 10 nichrome wires shaped like the digits 0 through 9 inside, with either a vacuum or noble gas (sorry, it's early, and I don't remember exactly). They were commonly used in the US up until the invention of vacuum fluorescent displays and LEDs sometime in the 1960s. They were obsolete in the Soviet Union, too... but nobody ever bothered to tell the factory. Year after year, they filled out the paperwork, received the supplies, manufactured millions of nixie tubes, boxed them up, and shipped them out... to a gigantic government warehouse, where they sat unsold until some guy bought their entire inventory for a pittance and started selling them on eBay to Americans who want to build retro Nixie Tube clocks, because nobody had any use for them. Nobody dared to challenge the factory's existence or what it produced, because it would have upset the Party, the unions, and just about everyone who worked in the town where the factory was. So it just kept making them, year after year. Stir, rinse, multiply by several hundred thousand other factories just like it, and you have a large part of the reason why the Soviet Union's economy could only collapse in the long run -- there was no market involved to serve as a high-level sanity check.

Healthcare is a complicated problem. Half the problem in the US is that we've created a f**ked up situation where the divergence between wholesale costs (what insurance companies REALLY pay for healthcare) and retail costs (what you'll pay if you get sick without insurance) is so outrageous, a visit to a doctor to get antibiotics for strep can easily end up costing $500 if you're paying the bill yourself without insurance. Worse, thanks to the way pre-existing conditions are handled, we've created a situation that turns employees with chronic conditions (like ADD, diabetes, etc) into healthcare vassals of their employers -- quit or get laid off, and you need new health insurance. Get new health insurance, and unless you're working for another large company, anything you've been treated for within the past 2 years is basically excluded forever going forward. And when they exclude it, they don't even have the decency to let you pay the much lower rate the health insurance company negotiated with the doctor/pharmacy/hospital -- you get f**ked for 100% of the full inflated retail cost.


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Tequila
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26 Dec 2011, 11:11 am

dr01dguy wrote:
One thing that's commonly forgotten is that the only countries where "socialism" hasn't gone completely down in flames are countries that were fairly wealthy and ethnically homogenous to begin with -- like Sweden.


Up until recently. They have their own problems with mass immigration, mainly from Muslim countries, to deal with. And many aren't happy about it.



Tequila
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26 Dec 2011, 11:13 am

dr01dguy wrote:
Healthcare is a complicated problem. Half the problem in the US is that we've created a f**ked up situation where the divergence between wholesale costs (what insurance companies REALLY pay for healthcare) and retail costs (what you'll pay if you get sick without insurance) is so outrageous, a visit to a doctor to get antibiotics for strep can easily end up costing $500 if you're paying the bill yourself without insurance. Worse, thanks to the way pre-existing conditions are handled, we've created a situation that turns employees with chronic conditions (like ADD, diabetes, etc) into healthcare vassals of their employers -- quit or get laid off, and you need new health insurance. Get new health insurance, and unless you're working for another large company, anything you've been treated for within the past 2 years is basically excluded forever going forward. And when they exclude it, they don't even have the decency to let you pay the much lower rate the health insurance company negotiated with the doctor/pharmacy/hospital -- you get f**ked for 100% of the full inflated retail cost.


Again, that's not in any way a free-market situation. It sounds heavily protectionist and regulated. Not a fun situation to be in.

Rest assured that most of the people in the UK who advocate privatising the NHS are not looking at the U.S. system as a solution.



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26 Dec 2011, 11:31 am

Everyone equal in any type of governement or economy?

:lol:



Sweetleaf
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26 Dec 2011, 11:50 am

Tequila wrote:
Quote:
I personally would rather eat healthy food thats not packed full of preservatives, whatever chemicals they feed to animals used for food or spray on vegtables


They do it to make things cheaper and - generally - safe.

Would you apply the concept of discriminatory healthcare? Would you tell people - through government advertisements, taxes and general peer pressure - that they cannot eat such-and-such? If I eat burgers and drink Buckfast all day, will you deny me medical treatment if I should become ill?

And what about salt? Is salt the new menace? The other problem I have with government regulation and nannying is that frequently it is restrictive and overbearing and inhibits progress, as well as being occasionally downright harmful. I do think you're looking at socialist systems with red-tinted glasses I'm afraid.

Sweetleaf wrote:
I think I am more into taking it further and creating a classless society with no government.


Expect a particularly nasty kind of Mafia rule to take hold then.


Why would I apply the concept of discriminatory healthcare? I already suffer from that more or less..because we have a healthcare system that discriminates based on ones ability to pay, so it discriminates by class. I do not think refusing to treat someone because of what they eat would be right either.

I see nothing wrong with regulations to prevent garbage food from being sold in stores......that is if the system in existance has a government, but I honestly don't even know that i like the idea of having a government leave it to them to screw things up. Hence the reason a classless society with no government would be my ideal system....and classless implies no one is above anyone else as far as power or class so no I am not advocating having a mafia rule rather than a government those are far too simular.


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Sweetleaf
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26 Dec 2011, 11:52 am

snapcap wrote:
Everyone equal in any type of governement or economy?

:lol:


that is why there cannot be a government to have class equality.


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26 Dec 2011, 11:57 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Everyone equal in any type of governement or economy?

:lol:


that is why there cannot be a government to have class equality.
And no one else is going to fill the power vacuum? You're going to have to do better than just raving and using vague phrases if you want to tell us how this is all supposed to work.



Tequila
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26 Dec 2011, 12:00 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
And no one else is going to fill the power vacuum?


Which is what I've been saying. You'll inevitably end up with a bunch of very nasty people who will fight their way to the top who will inflict various methods of violence and repression in order to keep the populace in line.



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26 Dec 2011, 12:00 pm

If my union receives 3 complaints from my bosses in a 9 month period my journey level certificate is revoked.