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donnie_darko
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22 Jan 2012, 3:14 pm

LKL wrote:
If the zef in question was in my body, I would consider it battery against me; if the zef was in their body, then no. The fact that half a zef's DNA comes from me does not make it 'my child,' it only makes it a zef that has some of my DNA.


so now you're saying that fatherhood is a false concept?



alwayswrong
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22 Jan 2012, 10:48 pm

artrat wrote:
Women are looked down upon if they don't wear makeup and fashionable cloths.
Not following this gender role has prevented my from getting a job.

Male interests are considered to be sports,politics and music.
Womens interests are considered to be fashion,celebrity gossip and raising children.
I think this is absolute crap since I fit in more with the male stereotype than the female.

I consider myself to be a feminist but Not superior to males. It should just be about equality and nothing else.

I can understand the point of the OP. Men are expected to be tough and go to war. I hate hearing someone use the phrase "Man Up"
Unfortunately I have heard this told to men many times.

sexism exists for both sexes but females do seem to be discriminated against worse.


I don't necessarily agree. There are double standards and issues that many feminist will not address.

One big areas is sex abuse/molestation/rape against males.

Another area is violence against men. Some claim it male on male but that is not necessarily true - also nobody is questioning why men/boys are turning violent (and now girls becoming move violent). It isn't all happening because of mens actions.

Men and boys are hit and there is less concern. My 13 dd goes to school. The girls were hitting boys and it wasn't until one of the boys hit back did things stop. It also required a lawyer to get the girls suspended. The girls hit and kicked boys and nothing was done because it is ok and the wrong idea the boys must of done something to deserve it.

Try being an involved dad and the suspect it can cause and degradation because people think they can't do it.

My husband is a chef. I have women ask and say they would never let their husbands shop or cook because they mess it up.



ruveyn
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22 Jan 2012, 11:06 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
LKL wrote:
If the zef in question was in my body, I would consider it battery against me; if the zef was in their body, then no. The fact that half a zef's DNA comes from me does not make it 'my child,' it only makes it a zef that has some of my DNA.


so now you're saying that fatherhood is a false concept?


Fatherhood is as real as rain as any pregnant female would tell you. It is Parenthood that is a social construct, rather than a biological fact.

ruveyn



LKL
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23 Jan 2012, 12:47 am

donnie_darko wrote:
LKL wrote:
If the zef in question was in my body, I would consider it battery against me; if the zef was in their body, then no. The fact that half a zef's DNA comes from me does not make it 'my child,' it only makes it a zef that has some of my DNA.


so now you're saying that fatherhood is a false concept?

You really love the false dilemma/straw man, don't you?

I'm saying that parenthood isn't much of an issue for anyone until the thing is born.



donnie_darko
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23 Jan 2012, 3:09 am

LKL wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
LKL wrote:
If the zef in question was in my body, I would consider it battery against me; if the zef was in their body, then no. The fact that half a zef's DNA comes from me does not make it 'my child,' it only makes it a zef that has some of my DNA.


so now you're saying that fatherhood is a false concept?

You really love the false dilemma/straw man, don't you?

I'm saying that parenthood isn't much of an issue for anyone until the thing is born.


Sorry, I misunderstood you.



donnie_darko
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23 Jan 2012, 3:13 am

Another thing that irritates me about many people who self-identify as feminists is that they demonize generalizations, like liberals in general do, I'm a liberal but that really annoys me about other liberals, sometimes generalization is useful and unavoidable, plus it's extremely difficult not to do once in a while so it's kind of blowharded to crucify someone for occasionally making a general statement by accident.

Yet feminists are fine with sweeping, ridiculous generalizations as long as they are positive and about women ... for example 'all women are strong' bullsh*t, some women are weak whiners, just like some men are, or 'all women are intuitive', again, a ridiculous statement, sure maybe there's something to the women's intuition idea, but it's not a quality every single woman possesses and if I credited every single male person with a similar virtue, a feminist would rip me apart.



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23 Jan 2012, 4:56 am

^^^

Image


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Chipshorter
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23 Jan 2012, 10:52 am

Rudyard Kipling wrote:
But to stand an’ be still to the Birken’ead drill is a damn tough bullet to chew, ...
So they stood an’ was still to the Birken’ead drill, soldier an’ sailor too!


The Birkenhead drill in maritime tradition is a perfect example of gender bias. The life of a woman is of more value that of a man's life.
The sinking of the John Laird built HMS Birkenhead started the practice of Women and children first.

Like with the sinking of the Birkenhead, the sinking of the RMS Titanic popularised this idea. Both these maritime incidents effected by Insufficient lifeboat provisions. One legacy of the Titanic disaster were safety changes to maritime policy.
Now a 100 years on after the Titanic's maiden voyage, has there been a change in the ideology of women and children first?


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alwayswrong
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23 Jan 2012, 11:07 am

Chipshorter wrote:
Rudyard Kipling wrote:
But to stand an’ be still to the Birken’ead drill is a damn tough bullet to chew, ...
So they stood an’ was still to the Birken’ead drill, soldier an’ sailor too!


The Birkenhead drill in maritime tradition is a perfect example of gender bias. The life of a woman is of more value that of a man's life.
The sinking of the John Laird built HMS Birkenhead started the practice of Women and children first.

Like with the sinking of the Birkenhead, the sinking of the RMS Titanic popularised this idea. Both these maritime incidents effected by Insufficient lifeboat provisions. One legacy of the Titanic disaster were safety changes to maritime policy.
Now a 100 years on after the Titanic's maiden voyage, has there been a change in the ideology of women and children first?


After this crash in Italy, no many people still think women and children first.

However many cruse ships have a systems that is irrelevant of gender and some people are disturbed by this.

One issue I have that feminist won't approach is registering for the draft. If my son doesn't do this he can't get financial aid. But my girls don't have to. Feminist don't see this as an issue or relevant.



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23 Jan 2012, 11:22 am

i believe Israel has conscription for both males and females. also the UK conscripted females in WWII as far as i know. seems fair. if you want it to change in your country i suggest you lobby for it.


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AngelRho
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23 Jan 2012, 11:37 am

The idea is being marginalized in society. "Women and children first" FAVORS a group that certain activists advocate as marginalized. I'd think one would have to be stupid to niggle over whether special treatment is unfair when it is a matter of life and death. Conscripting women for wartime service might even be seen as an oppressive tactic. What better way to get rid of annoying feminazis than to just "oops" happen to call their numbers up first?



mar00
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23 Jan 2012, 12:08 pm

I believe that people who 'do not believe in feminism' have some.. (gender) issues and are rather uneducated.
Fortunately no one cares about you, people. You can drown in your delusions while the world moves forward.
All I see is just irrational self-defence.



hyperlexian
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23 Jan 2012, 12:15 pm

AngelRho wrote:
The idea is being marginalized in society. "Women and children first" FAVORS a group that certain activists advocate as marginalized. I'd think one would have to be stupid to niggle over whether special treatment is unfair when it is a matter of life and death. Conscripting women for wartime service might even be seen as an oppressive tactic. What better way to get rid of annoying feminazis than to just "oops" happen to call their numbers up first?

the reason why there is a reminder to save women and children first is because.... in an emergency situation the most likely survivors are young healthy males because they are bigger and stronger. one of the strongest predictors of survival in a plane crash is to be a young healthy male. people usually seek to save themselves and will do everything they can to survive, even if that means climbing over little old ladies or pushing kids out of the way to get to safety. but maybe the costant mantra of "women and children first" will allow some females and kids to survive too.


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AngelRho
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23 Jan 2012, 1:53 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
The idea is being marginalized in society. "Women and children first" FAVORS a group that certain activists advocate as marginalized. I'd think one would have to be stupid to niggle over whether special treatment is unfair when it is a matter of life and death. Conscripting women for wartime service might even be seen as an oppressive tactic. What better way to get rid of annoying feminazis than to just "oops" happen to call their numbers up first?

the reason why there is a reminder to save women and children first is because.... in an emergency situation the most likely survivors are young healthy males because they are bigger and stronger. one of the strongest predictors of survival in a plane crash is to be a young healthy male. people usually seek to save themselves and will do everything they can to survive, even if that means climbing over little old ladies or pushing kids out of the way to get to safety. but maybe the costant mantra of "women and children first" will allow some females and kids to survive too.

I think that's probably the most "common sense" reasoning there. I may not LIKE many radical activists (and I mean anywhere from "feminazis" to Westboro types), but at least on this one issue the radical feminists show an inkling of rationality.

As to the question posed by the thread title... I think feminism has merit. It's the destructive nature of radicalized groups that I find offensive.



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23 Jan 2012, 10:45 pm

Feminism does exist, yes


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23 Jan 2012, 11:09 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
emergency situation the most likely survivors are young healthy males because they are bigger and stronger. one of the strongest predictors of survival in a plane crash is to be a young healthy male. people usually seek to save themselves and will do everything they can to survive, even if that means climbing over little old ladies or pushing kids out of the way to get to safety. but maybe the costant mantra of "women and children first" will allow some females and kids to survive too.


I believe that women and children should go first because as a male who is physically strong I see my reason for having this strength as existing only so that I can protect those who are not necessary capable of defending themselves. Men are strong only so that they can meet their responsibility to protect others. Men who use their strength otherwise are not worthy of the name.


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