Personhood and Abortion

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13 Mar 2012, 2:12 am

As far as I'm concerned, it's not my business to tell a woman what she can, or cannot, do with her own body. I'm male, and barring some seriously freak-assed circumstances I will never be able to comprehend the various issues that surround abortion. Ideologically, I support the idea that a woman should be free to be her own moral actor, but I also believe it's not really my fight to win or lose. After all, anything I say on the matter is from the perspective of an extreme outsider; who am I to judge, one way or the other?

LKL
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13 Mar 2012, 2:25 am

Lord_Gareth wrote:

Thank you for that bit of sanity. I feel the same way when I encounter a debate about male circumcision: not my place to tell men what to do with their bodies.

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13 Mar 2012, 2:27 am

LKL wrote:

Lord_Gareth wrote:

Thank you for that bit of sanity. I feel the same way when I encounter a debate about male circumcision: not my place to tell men what to do with their bodies.

However, on my personal behalf, could you throw a glass of water or grape juice into the face of anyone you meet that does advocate male circumcision? If they ask, say a man online asked you to do it as a personal favor.

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13 Mar 2012, 7:02 am

I don't know how you can stay so civil in these debates, LKL. I'm avoiding talking about abortion on here because I'll say something in anger.

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13 Mar 2012, 7:25 am

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

The earliest memories I have are from 3 years old. Anything prior to that is fragmentary. There...but fragmentary. I honestly don't think that the human brain is capable of putting information together to the effect of what we consider to be human consciousness much earlier than that. I honestly think that it's silly to believe that a fetus has the same kind of mind as a child. It just doesn't.

.

To play devil's advocate, why not legalize infanticide too then?

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13 Mar 2012, 7:57 am

donnie_darko wrote:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

To play devil's advocate, why not legalize infanticide too then?

yay because one didnt come to expect the tired hypebole of insanity in these threads..

kudos LKL very fine rgument you provide, a shame the ones that would actually benefit from it wont rerad it.

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13 Mar 2012, 8:03 am

I think abortion is just one of those things humans are never going to agree on. Even I don't really have totally formed opinion of it, I think the anti-abortion crowd tend to be hypocrites but then again the pro-abortion crowd are too. It's like religion vs atheism I really don't agree with either side completely.

My stance on abortion is I am against it and think it should be discouraged but since most people seem to want it legal I guess I'm against making it a crime. Plus I just don't really feel like punishing people who get abortions would help anything. I still think it's kind of hyperbolic to compare abortion to the vote or something like that, though.

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13 Mar 2012, 8:07 am

donnie_darko wrote:

I think I can simplify the issue for you. Whatever is in a woman is her -property- which means she can dispose of it as she sees fit.

A fetus: inside a woman it is property, outside a woman it is a person requiring care.

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13 Mar 2012, 8:09 am

ruveyn wrote:

I don't agree with the logic of that common argument because the fetus has its own DNA, hence it is its own body. Like I said, I find abortion, to say the least, ethically questionable, but I'm also against criminalising it because the majority of the society seems to condone it and I think it's more productive to change hearts than laws.

If the majority of people thought murdering an adult was morally acceptable, I'd be against criminalising it too, since it wouldn't make the situation better and couldn't be enforced, I would be more intent on trying to change people's hearts on the matter.

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13 Mar 2012, 8:12 am

but you have been in the discussion for so long that my view is you dont use logic,

or you would see that conscoiusness quite simply isnt possible for the whole pregnancy, it becomes at a point but untill then it simply isnt there.

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13 Mar 2012, 8:13 am

donnie_darko wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

A tape worm has its own DNA. Does that mean it cannot be removed? Bacteria have their own DNA does that mean they cannot be killed or removed? Your argument is not coherent.

DNA as such does not imply person hood. If that were the case each hair on your head would be a person. You hair has a complete genome.

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13 Mar 2012, 8:15 am

... Yet sperm also have their own DNA. Are they not the man's property?

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13 Mar 2012, 8:17 am

Vexcalibur wrote:

... Yet sperm also have their own DNA. Are they not the man's property?

Yes. An he can squirt them wherever he can.

Once that sperm joins an egg, it ceases to exist as a sperm so the question of property becomes moot.

Our genes are not property since they were not created by labor.

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Last edited by ruveyn on 13 Mar 2012, 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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13 Mar 2012, 8:18 am

Oodain wrote:

We can't be 100% sure of that though. Some people even think TREES have consciousness.

Ruveyn wrote:

A tapeworm isn't human though. And it's not DNA that makes personhood in this case, it's a unique DNA code. The fact is a fetus does not have the same DNA code as its mother, thus, it is not part of the mother's body and that whole argument is thus illogical.

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13 Mar 2012, 8:18 am

Vexcalibur wrote:

... Yet sperm also have their own DNA. Are they not the man's property?

It's not until the sperm and egg fuse that they are actually a distinct organism.

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13 Mar 2012, 8:20 am

donnie_darko wrote:

Oodain wrote:

We can't be 100% sure of that though. Some people even think TREES have consciousness.

that only serves to prove my point.

just because people hold a belief doesnt mean the probability of that increases.

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