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Bloody Sunday!

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Tequila
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08 Jun 2012, 10:53 am

Cornflake wrote:
If it's Ok for "Westerners" to complain about Islam then it's equally Ok for "an Irishman" to romanticise the IRA


Not the same thing at all, not in a million years.

It is perfectly just and acceptable (and should even be encouraged) for Westerners to peacefully and forcefully state their extreme concerns about Islam in the UK and Western countries, as long as they advocate peaceful solutions to the problem. Just like it's perfectly fine for people to articulate peaceful Irish nationalism (or British nationalism, French nationalism or any other peaceful nationalsm).

The difference with the IRA is that they murdered (and continue to murder) policemen and soldiers. Also, they massacred innocent people going to church, burnt pensioners alive in hotels, abducted and tortured a special needs child and left him to die and murdered countless more others, including pregnant women and young children, going about their daily lives in Northern Ireland. They set off massive bombs in town centres in Northern Ireland and in England.

If you were comparing like for like, it would be like me romanticising Anders Breivik and supporting the idea that random Muslims should be machine-gunned to death by racist terrorists, their mosques bombed and their meeting halls stormed and the people inside them gunned down.

How would you feel if I called for all the things on the last paragraph? None of those things have happened in the UK, yet you seem to think it's perfectly OK for someone to romanticise and commemorate an organisation which butchered and murdered the people of Northern Ireland (and sometimes in England) for thirty-odd years.

Frankly, if that's your moral plane it says an awful lot about you, Cornflake.



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08 Jun 2012, 10:59 am

Tequila wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
If it's Ok for "Westerners" to complain about Islam then it's equally Ok for "an Irishman" to romanticise the IRA


Not the same thing at all, not in a million years.

It is perfectly just and acceptable (and should even be encouraged) for Westerners to peacefully and forcefully state their extreme concerns about Islam in the UK and Western countries, as long as they advocate peaceful solutions to the problem. Just like it's perfectly fine for people to articulate peaceful Irish nationalism (or British nationalism, French nationalism or any other peaceful nationalsm).

Let me give it a try. Muslims look different, that scares me. So I think they should go to separate schools, separate but equal so there is nothing wrong with that. Let's do the same for movie theater's, sporting events, and food places. Even public water fountains.


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Tequila
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08 Jun 2012, 11:02 am

Delphiki wrote:
Let me give it a try. Muslims look different, that scares me. So I think they should go to separate schools, separate but equal so there is nothing wrong with that. Let's do the same for movie theater's, sporting events, and food places. Even public water fountains.


Apartheid? It's an obnoxious and reprehensible view to put it mildly, but at least it's not calling for violence.

I think what I object to most is the fact that valid criticism of Islam is seen as just as acceptable as someone romanticising an organisation that maimed and murdered thousands in Northern Ireland for 30 years.



Delphiki
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08 Jun 2012, 11:08 am

Tequila wrote:
Delphiki wrote:
Let me give it a try. Muslims look different, that scares me. So I think they should go to separate schools, separate but equal so there is nothing wrong with that. Let's do the same for movie theater's, sporting events, and food places. Even public water fountains.


Apartheid? It's an obnoxious and reprehensible view to put it mildly, but at least it's not calling for violence.

I think what I object to most is the fact that valid criticism of Islam is seen as just as acceptable as someone romanticising an organisation that maimed and murdered thousands in Northern Ireland for 30 years.
How is it bad? It is separate but equal. Keep those scary people away from me!


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Tequila
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08 Jun 2012, 11:12 am

Delphiki wrote:
How is it bad? It is separate but equal. Keep those scary people away from me!


Separate but equal my arse. I can't think of anywhere it's been done where it truly has been separate but equal. Also, I live in an unofficially segregated area myself and I can tell you that it causes tons of problems. All the problems are still there and they are left to fester, you just can't see 'em.



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08 Jun 2012, 11:27 am

Tequila wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
If it's Ok for "Westerners" to complain about Islam then it's equally Ok for "an Irishman" to romanticise the IRA
Not the same thing at all, not in a million years.
You're missing the point entirely.

Let's try it another way.
If it's Ok to discuss one thing, considered nasty/objectionable/problematic it's therefore permissible to discuss some other thing considered nasty/objectionable/problematic.
I am not seeking to establish any kind of equivalence.

The whole point of my post was to indicate that no moral judgement whatever is being made about this thread and that it will be allowed because no rules are broken.

Your really ought to put that axe-sharpener down and read what I said in the light of the "free speech and thought" argument it was made in.
We have no moderating comment to make on the issue unless rules are broken.
Isn't that what you (and others) wanted, especially here in PPR?

Surely you're not just saying that it's Ok to discuss nasty/objectionable/problematic things that you're Ok with, while certain other nasty/objectionable/problematic things shouldn't be allowed?


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Frankly, if that's your moral plane it says an awful lot about you, Cornflake.
I'd be grateful if you'd hop off your high horse and didn't attempt to conflate my morals, about which you know nothing, with statements and opinions expressed by the OP of this thread.


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Tequila
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08 Jun 2012, 11:56 am

Is it OK for someone to romanticise the idea of random Muslims being machine-gunned to death by racist terrorists, their mosques bombed and their meeting halls stormed and the people inside them gunned down, then? Come on, spit it out. Freedom of speech and all that.



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08 Jun 2012, 12:05 pm

Provided no rules are broken someone can say pretty much what they want and they can look as ridiculous as they want while they're saying it - but I suspect that you're having a hissy-fit just because you don't like what Joker said.
Well - suck it up, princess. That's free speech. He is allowed to hold and express that view if he chooses to.
Discuss it with him or walk away.

I'd also refer to this, again, with special emphasis on this part referring to PPR:

TallyMan wrote:
It is for debating and as such pretty much anything goes provided it stays within the site rules. It is more or less freedom of speech. It doesn't matter if some people have obnoxious or ill-informed opinions regarding politics, religion or virtually anything else.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4674270.html#4674270


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08 Jun 2012, 12:21 pm

Delphiki wrote:
Joker wrote:
I know that when I bring up the British and Irish fighting and I am talking about what is going on in my country. We can't stand each other in America as for the IRA had family members in that group. But it is still fun to debate about at least talk about.
That is a blanket statement that is untrue in my experience


Me and you don't live the same life so I'll take your word for it but it doesnt change anything about my life.



Tequila
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08 Jun 2012, 12:23 pm

Cornflake wrote:
but I suspect that you're having a hissy-fit just because you don't like what Joker said.


His name is apt.

Cornflake wrote:
Well - suck it up, princess. That's free speech. He is allowed to hold and express that view if he chooses to.
Discuss it with him or walk away.


Then we are in agreement. I was pissed off that you equated making peaceful criticism of Islam with romanticisation (by an American) for violence and murder in a country he doesn't live in and rarely visits, as though they're both equally "OK". I have no issue with the free speech aspect but it's a bit off to try to suggest that they are both morally equivalent.



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08 Jun 2012, 12:26 pm

Tequila wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
If it's Ok for "Westerners" to complain about Islam then it's equally Ok for "an Irishman" to romanticise the IRA


Not the same thing at all, not in a million years.

It is perfectly just and acceptable (and should even be encouraged) for Westerners to peacefully and forcefully state their extreme concerns about Islam in the UK and Western countries, as long as they advocate peaceful solutions to the problem. Just like it's perfectly fine for people to articulate peaceful Irish nationalism (or British nationalism, French nationalism or any other peaceful nationalsm).

The difference with the IRA is that they murdered (and continue to murder) policemen and soldiers. Also, they massacred innocent people going to church, burnt pensioners alive in hotels, abducted and tortured a special needs child and left him to die and murdered countless more others, including pregnant women and young children, going about their daily lives in Northern Ireland. They set off massive bombs in town centres in Northern Ireland and in England.

If you were comparing like for like, it would be like me romanticising Anders Breivik and supporting the idea that random Muslims should be machine-gunned to death by racist terrorists, their mosques bombed and their meeting halls stormed and the people inside them gunned down.

How would you feel if I called for all the things on the last paragraph? None of those things have happened in the UK, yet you seem to think it's perfectly OK for someone to romanticise and commemorate an organisation which butchered and murdered the people of Northern Ireland (and sometimes in England) for thirty-odd years.

Frankly, if that's your moral plane it says an awful lot about you, Cornflake.


It is the same thing the exact same thing.



Delphiki
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08 Jun 2012, 12:26 pm

Joker wrote:
Delphiki wrote:
Joker wrote:
I know that when I bring up the British and Irish fighting and I am talking about what is going on in my country. We can't stand each other in America as for the IRA had family members in that group. But it is still fun to debate about at least talk about.
That is a blanket statement that is untrue in my experience
Me and you don't live the same life so I'll take your word for it but it doesnt change anything about my life.
I never said I live the same life as you. I never said it would change anything about your life. I qualified my statement by saying in my experience.


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Tequila
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08 Jun 2012, 12:28 pm

Joker wrote:
It is the same thing the exact same thing.


If you want to try to defend the indefensible, then shame on you.

Mind you, there are people who defend and celebrate Hitler's gassing of Jews, so I don't suppose it's considered that much of a stretch.



Joker
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08 Jun 2012, 12:29 pm

Delphiki wrote:
Joker wrote:
Delphiki wrote:
Joker wrote:
I know that when I bring up the British and Irish fighting and I am talking about what is going on in my country. We can't stand each other in America as for the IRA had family members in that group. But it is still fun to debate about at least talk about.
That is a blanket statement that is untrue in my experience
Me and you don't live the same life so I'll take your word for it but it doesnt change anything about my life.
I never said I live the same life as you. I never said it would change anything about your life. I qualified my statement by saying in my experience.

Then you know the point I was making In North Carolina their are a lot of Irish people. And a lot of people of English and British descent we don't like each other.



Tequila
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08 Jun 2012, 12:30 pm

Joker wrote:
Then you know the point I was making In North Carolina their are a lot of Irish people. And a lot of people of English and British descent we don't like each other.


Funnily enough, I was in Northern Ireland last week and I got on perfectly well with British and Irish people living there and in the Republic. We (and they) just get on with life as they always did. If I can, you should be able to also.



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08 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
Then you know the point I was making In North Carolina their are a lot of Irish people. And a lot of people of English and British descent we don't like each other.


Funnily enough, I was in Northern Ireland last week and I got on perfectly well with British and Irish people living there and in the Republic. We (and they) just get on with life as they always did. If I can, you should be able to also.


Come to North Carolina and try to get along with the Irish here it won't happen. We mostly fight about sports mostly football. We have rival hooligan clubs we just fight over sports.