If a tree fell in a forest and no one was around...

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deltafunction
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09 Jun 2012, 3:59 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

deltafunction wrote:

Yeah, electromagnetic waves need no medium, though sound is the kind of wave which does.

I agree that the sound will not be perceived without eardrums to vibrate.

Thats not the question.
The question is if the sound is not perceived then is it still sound?

Oh sorry, I thought that was implied. No, it will not be sound if no one can process the vibrations that occurred. It will just be waves traveling through a medium, which is all that "sound" really is without it being processed.

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naturalplastic
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09 Jun 2012, 4:29 pm

edgewaters wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

All the meteors that strike mars and venus make sounds despite the fact that no one hears it (that we know of).

Solipsism says no, and its impossible to win a logical argument against a solipsist; at some point or another you have to rely on the rather lame excuse that solipsism is not a useful way to look at the world. But then you've entered pragmatism, and they can get you there too, since it's not pragmatic to talk about things no one has or will ever experience.

Yes, you can then take it to the next level and say that "yes- 'sound' is the phenomenon of pulses through the air that could be detected by eardrums, whether its detected by eardrums or not. But a pragmatists would say that "since for practical purposes no human hears the sound of meteors hitting our neighboring planets then those events dont make sounds- even if they - well- DO make sounds."

But then (if he were consistent) a pragmatist would then be forced to say that the continent of Antarctica didnt exist until it was discovered by an explorer in 1780 (by capt cook or whomever) because no human ever saw antarctica until that moment. So for practical purposes, from the pov of the human race, antarctica only poped into existence 300 years ago ( despite the fact that that continent has fossil creatures in its soil 100's of millions of years old).

Then if you were a solipsist would take pragmatism one step further and say that naturalplastic, and everyone else on wp except you dont exist, and nothing in the universe exists except you, and your own sensory impressions. Which is a whole 'nother can of worms for another thread.

But I would have to agree that saying that the tree (or meteor) that falls with no human hearing it is for PRACTICAL purposes silent - so the "not making a sound" option is more pragmatic. But like I said - pragmatism leads to conclusions like antarctica magically poping into existence only centuries ago. So pragmatism( which means 'practicalism') only goes so far before it subverts itsself and becomes impractical!

deltafunction
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09 Jun 2012, 4:37 pm

It's just physics... And does anyone else notice that if you are underwater, and you yell, you can hear it while you are underwater? But anyone on land will not hear you? I think that's pretty cool, but it's the same concept. Sound waves travel through the medium regardless of if anyone is around or not (does not require yelling lol, just any sound waves created underwater). But it is not heard unless the sound reaches someone's eardrums.

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naturalplastic
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09 Jun 2012, 5:06 pm

deltafunction wrote:

That is cool - that a person's vocalizations cant go from water to air.
When I was a kid I messed around with a tuning fork- hitting it -and then sticking it in the water of my fish tank. You could still hear it when I was holding most of it underwater, but its pitch would drop suddenly by about a whole octave ( like the difference between a woman's voice and a man's voice) as I plunged it into the water. Presumably the tuning fork slowed when pushing against the heavier fluid.

Whales can hear each other (supposedly) thousands of miles from each other. But (dont know for sure but Im guessing) if you're standing on the deck of ship between two yakking whales you cant hear any of it. Although you might be able to feel their conversation through your feet by way of the ship vibrating. But even then it would be buried in the vibrations of the ship's own engines and other noise.

Theyve recently discovered that elephants emit ultra low frequency vocalizations which pass through the ground that other elephants can sense miles away. Apparently these sounds are a whole big part of their communication and social life- that we didnt even know about until now.

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09 Jun 2012, 6:32 pm

IT WOULD STILL MAKE A SOUND

ruveyn
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09 Jun 2012, 9:23 pm

Joker wrote:

IT WOULD STILL MAKE A SOUND

Sound is the perception of vibration of the air, not the vibration itself.

ruveyn

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09 Jun 2012, 9:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Joker wrote:

IT WOULD STILL MAKE A SOUND

Sound is the perception of vibration of the air, not the vibration itself.

ruveyn

Still it would make a sound if a star explodes in Space it still makes a sound even if we do not hear it.

ruveyn
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09 Jun 2012, 9:29 pm

Joker wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Joker wrote:

IT WOULD STILL MAKE A SOUND

Sound is the perception of vibration of the air, not the vibration itself.

ruveyn

Still it would make a sound if a star explodes in Space it still makes a sound even if we do not hear it.

Sound is a perception. One needs a perceiver. Who would hear the sound of an exploding star? There is no air in space to carry the sound to our ears.

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09 Jun 2012, 9:30 pm

If a tree in the forest fell on Helen Keller and killed her, would it make a sound?

ruveyn

Last edited by ruveyn on 09 Jun 2012, 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

edgewaters
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09 Jun 2012, 9:31 pm

Joker wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Joker wrote:

IT WOULD STILL MAKE A SOUND

Sound is the perception of vibration of the air, not the vibration itself.

ruveyn

Still it would make a sound if a star explodes in Space it still makes a sound even if we do not hear it.

No actually it makes no sound at all. There is no sound in space. Sound needs a medium to propagate, it simply does not exist in a vacuum. There is nothing to vibrate. Sound can't happen.

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09 Jun 2012, 9:33 pm

edgewaters wrote:

Joker wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Joker wrote:

IT WOULD STILL MAKE A SOUND

Sound is the perception of vibration of the air, not the vibration itself.

ruveyn

Still it would make a sound if a star explodes in Space it still makes a sound even if we do not hear it.

No actually it makes no sound at all. There is no sound in space. Sound needs a medium to propagate, it simply does not exist in a vacuum. There is nothing to vibrate. Sound can't happen.

Interesting so that is what they mean by in space no one can hear you scream.

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09 Jun 2012, 9:34 pm

ruveyn wrote:

If a tree in the forest fell on Helen Keller and killed her, would it make a sound?

ruveyn

that I am not sure how to answer Helen Keller could not talk that well.

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09 Jun 2012, 9:38 pm

Philosophers, get a job tinky boy!

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09 Jun 2012, 9:44 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

Philosophers, get a job tinky boy!

btw love the avatar :wink:

deltafunction
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09 Jun 2012, 9:47 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Yeah... that makes sense, actually, since sound waves can technically be transmitted between mediums of different densities. I think you're right about the reason behind the pitch change.

Apparently sound travels 4 times faster in water than it does in air:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

Quote:

[Sound] travels about 4.3 times faster in water (1,484 m/s), and nearly 15 times as fast in iron (5,120 m/s), than in air at 20 degrees Celsius.

Perhaps this is part of the reason why the sound waves propagate so far in water for the whales, but are not heard from the surface.

Could you imagine the topic being a question on a physics test?

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09 Jun 2012, 11:10 pm

No one is buying my bursting into flames theory...

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