21 Jun 2012, 9:47 pm
Longshanks
Veteran
Joined: 2 Feb 2012
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 558
Location: At an undisclosed airbase at Shangri-la
21 Jun 2012, 10:34 pm
ArrantPariah wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
I'm going to address one point at a time. There's a lot here.
....
3d Point: Are you surprised? Pride was the first sin ever committed, and it was committed by Satan. See Is. 14:12-17.
....
Longshanks
....
3d Point: Are you surprised? Pride was the first sin ever committed, and it was committed by Satan. See Is. 14:12-17.
....
Longshanks
Brilliant satire, Sir! Thou art in fine form tonight.
You read those passeges - you'll find out this is far from satire!
Longshanks
Either thou art pulling our legs, or thou art consumed with silliness.
Isaiah 14 wrote:
14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
14:23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
14:28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
14:23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
14:28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
The passage has nothing at all to do with Satan. Isaiah 14:12 is the only verse in the bible that mentions Lucifer. There is no biblical justification for considering Lucifer to be Satan. In this verse "Lucifer" refers to the king of Babylon (Nebuchadrezzar) and Lucifer (the light bearer) is also called the "son of the morning" or morning star.
Quote:
Isaiah here promises that the Israelites will be freed from their Babylonian captivity and will then be able to use in a taunting song against their oppressor the image of the Morning Star, which rises at dawn as the brightest of the stars, outshining Jupiter and Saturn, but lasting only until the sun appears. This image was used in an old popular Canaanite story that the Morning Star tried to rise high above the clouds and establish himself on the mountain where the gods assembled, in the far north, but was cast down into the underworld.
The phrase "O star of the morning, son of the dawn" in verse 12 translates the Hebrew הילל בן־שׁחר Helel Ben-Shachar. As the Latin poets personified the Morning Star and the Dawn (Aurora), as well as the Sun and the Moon and other heavenly bodies, so in Canaanite mythology Morning Star and Dawn were pictured as two deities, the former being the son of the latter.
The phrase "O star of the morning, son of the dawn" in verse 12 translates the Hebrew הילל בן־שׁחר Helel Ben-Shachar. As the Latin poets personified the Morning Star and the Dawn (Aurora), as well as the Sun and the Moon and other heavenly bodies, so in Canaanite mythology Morning Star and Dawn were pictured as two deities, the former being the son of the latter.
Here is the Good News version of Isaiah 14
Good News Version wrote:
Isaiah 14
The Return from Exile
1 The Lord will once again be merciful to his people Israel and choose them as his own. He will let them live in their own land again, and foreigners will come and live there with them.2 Many nations will help the people of Israel return to the land which the Lord gave them, and there the nations will serve Israel as slaves. Those who once captured Israel will now be captured by Israel, and the people of Israel will rule over those who once oppressed them.
The King of Babylon in the World of the Dead
3 The Lord will give the people of Israel relief from their pain and suffering and from the hard work they were forced to do.4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:
The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again!5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered.7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy.8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!
9 The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones.10 They all call out to him,
Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us!11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.
12 King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.13 You were determined to climb up to heaven and to place your throne above the highest stars. You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble.14 You said you would climb to the tops of the clouds and be like the Almighty.15 But instead, you have been brought down to the deepest part of the world of the dead.
16 The dead will stare and gape at you. They will ask,
Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble?17 Is this the man who destroyed cities and turned the world into a desert? Is this the man who never freed his prisoners or let them go home?
18 All the kings of the earth lie in their magnificent tombs,19 but you have no tomb, and your corpse is thrown out to rot. It is covered by the bodies of soldiers killed in battle, thrown with them into a rocky pit, and trampled down.20 Because you ruined your country and killed your own people, you will not be buried like other kings. None of your evil family will survive.21 Let the slaughter begin! The sons of this king will die because of their ancestors' sins. None of them will ever rule the earth or cover it with cities.
God Will Destroy Babylon
22 The Lord Almighty says,
I will attack Babylon and bring it to ruin. I will leave nothing—no children, no survivors at all. I, the Lord, have spoken.23 I will turn Babylon into a marsh, and owls will live there. I will sweep Babylon with a broom that will sweep everything away. I, the Lord Almighty, have spoken.
God Will Destroy the Assyrians
24 The Lord Almighty has sworn an oath:
What I have planned will happen. What I have determined to do will be done.25 I will destroy the Assyrians in my land of Israel and trample them on my mountains. I will free my people from the Assyrian yoke and from the burdens they have had to bear.26 This is my plan for the world, and my arm is stretched out to punish the nations.
27 The Lord Almighty is determined to do this; he has stretched out his arm to punish, and no one can stop him.
God Will Destroy the Philistines
28 This is a message that was proclaimed in the year that King Ahaz died.
29 People of Philistia, the rod that beat you is broken, but you have no reason to be glad. When one snake dies, a worse one comes in its place. A snake's egg hatches a flying dragon.30 The Lord will be a shepherd to the poor of his people and will let them live in safety. But he will send a terrible famine on you Philistines, and it will not leave any of you alive.
31 Howl and cry for help, all you Philistine cities! Be terrified, all of you! A cloud of dust is coming from the north—it is an army with no cowards in its ranks.
32 How shall we answer the messengers that come to us from Philistia? We will tell them that the Lord has established Zion and that his suffering people will find safety there.
The Return from Exile
1 The Lord will once again be merciful to his people Israel and choose them as his own. He will let them live in their own land again, and foreigners will come and live there with them.2 Many nations will help the people of Israel return to the land which the Lord gave them, and there the nations will serve Israel as slaves. Those who once captured Israel will now be captured by Israel, and the people of Israel will rule over those who once oppressed them.
The King of Babylon in the World of the Dead
3 The Lord will give the people of Israel relief from their pain and suffering and from the hard work they were forced to do.4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:
The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again!5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered.7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy.8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!
9 The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones.10 They all call out to him,
Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us!11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.
12 King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.13 You were determined to climb up to heaven and to place your throne above the highest stars. You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble.14 You said you would climb to the tops of the clouds and be like the Almighty.15 But instead, you have been brought down to the deepest part of the world of the dead.
16 The dead will stare and gape at you. They will ask,
Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble?17 Is this the man who destroyed cities and turned the world into a desert? Is this the man who never freed his prisoners or let them go home?
18 All the kings of the earth lie in their magnificent tombs,19 but you have no tomb, and your corpse is thrown out to rot. It is covered by the bodies of soldiers killed in battle, thrown with them into a rocky pit, and trampled down.20 Because you ruined your country and killed your own people, you will not be buried like other kings. None of your evil family will survive.21 Let the slaughter begin! The sons of this king will die because of their ancestors' sins. None of them will ever rule the earth or cover it with cities.
God Will Destroy Babylon
22 The Lord Almighty says,
I will attack Babylon and bring it to ruin. I will leave nothing—no children, no survivors at all. I, the Lord, have spoken.23 I will turn Babylon into a marsh, and owls will live there. I will sweep Babylon with a broom that will sweep everything away. I, the Lord Almighty, have spoken.
God Will Destroy the Assyrians
24 The Lord Almighty has sworn an oath:
What I have planned will happen. What I have determined to do will be done.25 I will destroy the Assyrians in my land of Israel and trample them on my mountains. I will free my people from the Assyrian yoke and from the burdens they have had to bear.26 This is my plan for the world, and my arm is stretched out to punish the nations.
27 The Lord Almighty is determined to do this; he has stretched out his arm to punish, and no one can stop him.
God Will Destroy the Philistines
28 This is a message that was proclaimed in the year that King Ahaz died.
29 People of Philistia, the rod that beat you is broken, but you have no reason to be glad. When one snake dies, a worse one comes in its place. A snake's egg hatches a flying dragon.30 The Lord will be a shepherd to the poor of his people and will let them live in safety. But he will send a terrible famine on you Philistines, and it will not leave any of you alive.
31 Howl and cry for help, all you Philistine cities! Be terrified, all of you! A cloud of dust is coming from the north—it is an army with no cowards in its ranks.
32 How shall we answer the messengers that come to us from Philistia? We will tell them that the Lord has established Zion and that his suffering people will find safety there.
This translation makes it clearer that Isaiah is talking about the King of Babylon, and NOT Satan. And, while the King of Babylon was indeed proud, there is nothing to indicate that this pride was a "sin", nor that this is the first time that the concept of sin entered the world.
So, congratulations on your brilliant satire!
Your argument has three gaping holes in it: 1) Old Testament prophesy has a short term parallel and a long-term parallel. 2) You are only taking into account a small part of the whole. Lucifer is clearly referred to as Satan in the Bible, though it is easy to see your confusion with the short-term prophesy, which was the fall of Babylon. That was discussed in detail in the Book of Daniel. 3) You don't take into account the differences between ancient Hebrew and Modern English and the meanings lost thereof. I'm at a disadvantage becaue I can't get this computer to type the Hebrew/Caldean alphabet - and that's necessary to show you what has been lost in translation between the English and Hebrew languages and how they communicated.
I can only be satisfied in saying that I disagree with your thesis.
Longshanks
21 Jun 2012, 10:46 pm
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
That would be funny if hell was a mixture between Sanfrancisco amsterdam and Las Vegas in the afterlife. 
That would be hell and there's no pun intended.
Longshanks
Clearly you hate fun.
no, clearly you do not understand what the purpose of life is.
you might need to pick up a Bible and start reading.
Cover-to-cover. I find your god, as depicted, to be vain, selfish, cruel, petty, and sadistic, and I find the historic actions of most of his worshipers to be similar (and their modern actions to be motivated by ethically irresponsible ignorance and hate).
Jesus was pretty cool. Shame his disciples (and resulting church) were/is filled with so many incompetent morons, but what're ya gonna do, right?
Longshanks
Veteran
Joined: 2 Feb 2012
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 558
Location: At an undisclosed airbase at Shangri-la
21 Jun 2012, 10:55 pm
Lord_Gareth wrote:
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
That would be funny if hell was a mixture between Sanfrancisco amsterdam and Las Vegas in the afterlife.
That would be hell and there's no pun intended.
Longshanks
Clearly you hate fun.
no, clearly you do not understand what the purpose of life is.
you might need to pick up a Bible and start reading.
Cover-to-cover. I find your god, as depicted, to be vain, selfish, cruel, petty, and sadistic, and I find the historic actions of most of his worshipers to be similar (and their modern actions to be motivated by ethically irresponsible ignorance and hate).
Jesus was pretty cool. Shame his disciples (and resulting church) were/is filled with so many incompetent morons, but what're ya gonna do, right?
Funny you should mention that. I was raised a liberal secular athiest. I find liberals and athiests, as I experienced them, to be vain, selfish, cruel, petty, and sadistic, and I find the historic actions of most liberals and athiests to be similar (and their modern actions to be motivated by ethically irresponsible ignorance and hate). That's what propelled me into Christianity.
Shame liberalism and atheism is filled with so many incompetent morons, but what're ya gonna do, right?
Longshanks
21 Jun 2012, 10:58 pm
Longshanks wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
That would be funny if hell was a mixture between Sanfrancisco amsterdam and Las Vegas in the afterlife.
That would be hell and there's no pun intended.
Longshanks
Clearly you hate fun.
no, clearly you do not understand what the purpose of life is.
you might need to pick up a Bible and start reading.
Cover-to-cover. I find your god, as depicted, to be vain, selfish, cruel, petty, and sadistic, and I find the historic actions of most of his worshipers to be similar (and their modern actions to be motivated by ethically irresponsible ignorance and hate).
Jesus was pretty cool. Shame his disciples (and resulting church) were/is filled with so many incompetent morons, but what're ya gonna do, right?
Funny you should mention that. I was raised a liberal secular athiest. I find liberals and athiests, as I experienced them, to be vain, selfish, cruel, petty, and sadistic, and I find the historic actions of most liberals and athiests to be similar (and their modern actions to be motivated by ethically irresponsible ignorance and hate). That's what propelled me into Christianity.
Shame liberalism and atheism is filled with so many incompetent morons, but what're ya gonna do, right?
Longshanks
Hilariously, I was raised semi-Christian (religion wasn't relevant to my family's life, but my parents are vaguely Christian). However, I'll toss this one out there: you find me someone killed in the name of Atheism and we'll talk.
21 Jun 2012, 11:01 pm
21 Jun 2012, 11:03 pm
21 Jun 2012, 11:43 pm
21 Jun 2012, 11:49 pm
22 Jun 2012, 12:17 am
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
22 Jun 2012, 12:19 am
Longshanks wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Longshanks wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
That would be funny if hell was a mixture between Sanfrancisco amsterdam and Las Vegas in the afterlife.
That would be hell and there's no pun intended.
Longshanks
Clearly you hate fun.
no, clearly you do not understand what the purpose of life is.
you might need to pick up a Bible and start reading.
Cover-to-cover. I find your god, as depicted, to be vain, selfish, cruel, petty, and sadistic, and I find the historic actions of most of his worshipers to be similar (and their modern actions to be motivated by ethically irresponsible ignorance and hate).
Jesus was pretty cool. Shame his disciples (and resulting church) were/is filled with so many incompetent morons, but what're ya gonna do, right?
Funny you should mention that. I was raised a liberal secular athiest. I find liberals and athiests, as I experienced them, to be vain, selfish, cruel, petty, and sadistic, and I find the historic actions of most liberals and athiests to be similar (and their modern actions to be motivated by ethically irresponsible ignorance and hate). That's what propelled me into Christianity.
Shame liberalism and atheism is filled with so many incompetent morons, but what're ya gonna do, right?
Longshanks
Nah, what you're describing aren't liberals, but NT's.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
22 Jun 2012, 12:21 am
Lord_Gareth wrote:
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Hilariously, I was raised semi-Christian (religion wasn't relevant to my family's life, but my parents are vaguely Christian). However, I'll toss this one out there: you find me someone killed in the name of Atheism and we'll talk.
i can assure you: you will get a false peace.
right around the same time the Catholic Church Inc. will announce that Jesus was not, in fact, the messiah, but just another one of the string of prophet's sent by God, thus merging Catholicism with Islam and embracing Mohammed as the ultimate prophet, pitting that super religion of fanatics and zealots against the poor little peaceful Christians who will be set upon like jackals on a zebra carcass.
No joke - do you mind if I jack this for a movie script? 'Cause I think it could sell, and I need a new project to work on.
yes i do mind actually because i stole it from someone else.. and he and i butt heads over this stuff all the time... but its all in good Faith.
Wait...wasn't that from a Chick Track originally?
Jack Chick is a laugh riot - - but he's such a hate filled fanatic that he doesn't even know it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
22 Jun 2012, 12:24 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Hilariously, I was raised semi-Christian (religion wasn't relevant to my family's life, but my parents are vaguely Christian). However, I'll toss this one out there: you find me someone killed in the name of Atheism and we'll talk.
i can assure you: you will get a false peace.
right around the same time the Catholic Church Inc. will announce that Jesus was not, in fact, the messiah, but just another one of the string of prophet's sent by God, thus merging Catholicism with Islam and embracing Mohammed as the ultimate prophet, pitting that super religion of fanatics and zealots against the poor little peaceful Christians who will be set upon like jackals on a zebra carcass.
No joke - do you mind if I jack this for a movie script? 'Cause I think it could sell, and I need a new project to work on.
yes i do mind actually because i stole it from someone else.. and he and i butt heads over this stuff all the time... but its all in good Faith.
Wait...wasn't that from a Chick Track originally?
Jack Chick is a laugh riot - - but he's such a hate filled fanatic that he doesn't even know it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Every time I hear a Christian say that sentence, my hope for humanity increases. Thank you, Kraich. Thank you.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
22 Jun 2012, 1:12 am
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
johansen wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Hilariously, I was raised semi-Christian (religion wasn't relevant to my family's life, but my parents are vaguely Christian). However, I'll toss this one out there: you find me someone killed in the name of Atheism and we'll talk.
i can assure you: you will get a false peace.
right around the same time the Catholic Church Inc. will announce that Jesus was not, in fact, the messiah, but just another one of the string of prophet's sent by God, thus merging Catholicism with Islam and embracing Mohammed as the ultimate prophet, pitting that super religion of fanatics and zealots against the poor little peaceful Christians who will be set upon like jackals on a zebra carcass.
No joke - do you mind if I jack this for a movie script? 'Cause I think it could sell, and I need a new project to work on.
yes i do mind actually because i stole it from someone else.. and he and i butt heads over this stuff all the time... but its all in good Faith.
Wait...wasn't that from a Chick Track originally?
Jack Chick is a laugh riot - - but he's such a hate filled fanatic that he doesn't even know it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Every time I hear a Christian say that sentence, my hope for humanity increases. Thank you, Kraich. Thank you.
Though I am myself a Christian (though hardly always a good one), I can say: anytime.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
22 Jun 2012, 3:36 am
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
22 Jun 2012, 4:02 am
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