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puddingmouse
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26 Jun 2012, 11:14 am

VMSmith wrote:
the new testament isnt exactly pacifistic. after the gospels its just blood and gore again. and it was jesus who said "i come not to bring peace but a sword." that aside, muhammad was into social justice as much as jesus was. he encouraged peace, fasting, mercy and alms giving as much as jesus did and some of the stuff he said could well be comprable to what jesus said. eg "god will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind" vs "as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers you did it to me."


Muhammed said some nice things, but what sort of example did he give? I've always seen Christianity as being more like Buddhism than the other two Abrahamic religions are (yes, I know Christianity and Buddhism are totally different). Jesus lived and spoke rather like an Indian mystic. Muhammed acted more like an Old Testament prophet. Christianity is world denying, whereas Islam isn't. Jesus had more in common with Gautama than he did with Muhammed.

Christianity was a weird, ascetic doomsday cult when it started. Islam began with the intention of making the whole word submit to Allah.


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Last edited by puddingmouse on 26 Jun 2012, 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Oodain
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26 Jun 2012, 11:20 am

hinduism isnt excactly a peacefull religion either.

link to a brief overview

the point of failure in these religious conflicts are consistently people so sure of their interpretation that everything else takes a backseat.

(edit i just saw you wrote buddhism but in reality that doesnt change much, they too have had their wars and persecuted people, )overview


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puddingmouse
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26 Jun 2012, 11:22 am

Oodain wrote:
hinduism isnt excactly a peacefull religion either.

link to a brief overview

the point of failure in these religious conflicts are consistently people so sure of their interpretation that everything else takes a backseat.

(edit i just saw you wrote buddhism but in reality that doesnt change much, they too have had their wars and persecuted people, )overview


I know. I'm talking about the founders of these faiths, not their adherents.


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puddingmouse
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26 Jun 2012, 11:24 am

Oodain wrote:
islam is no worse nor better than any other religion people use to justify their violent insanity, christinaity in particular.


You can get all kinds of insanity from following Jesus, but you're reading the gospels wrong if you get justification for violence out of it.


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Oodain
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26 Jun 2012, 11:26 am

but the issue here isnt the founders, its the people following,

even if the founder was a carebear addicted to affection and love you would find people perverting it to suit their needs
besides no one today can claim they know what these supposed founders actually meant, we can speculate with varying degrees of circumstancial and anecdotal evidence but thats about it.


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puddingmouse
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26 Jun 2012, 11:26 am

DC wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:

There are quotes like that in the OT, like 'slay the Amalekites'. There is a difference with Christianity, though. It's bizarrely pacifistic in doctrine for an Abrahamic religion. I realised that Christians have slain lots of people in the name of Christ, but nowhere does Jesus recommend slaying anyone. I'm not even a Christian, so I don't know why I'm saying this. I guess I still admire Jesus as a person. What is there to admire about Muhammed?


So are Sufis and Ahmadis, bunch of bloody hippies.

Oddly enough mainstream muslims delight in persecuting pacifist sects as apostates and not proper muslims.


The practices of Sufism basically predate Islam, anyway.

And yes, I'm aware that modern Sufis consider themsleves devout Muslims.


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puddingmouse
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26 Jun 2012, 11:30 am

Oodain wrote:
but the issue here isnt the founders, its the people following,

even if the founder was a carebear addicted to affection and love you would find people perverting it to suit their needs
besides no one today can claim they know what these supposed founders actually meant, we can speculate with varying degrees of circumstancial and anecdotal evidence but thats about it.


You're right.

We have scriptures where it's on record that Muhammed recommends violence, whereas no comparable direct command to hurt others is found in the gospels. That's all I was saying.

I don't know. When I was a Christian, I took the religion as primarily a matter of Christ following and imitating. Hence my focus on the founders of faiths.


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DC
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26 Jun 2012, 12:38 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
You're right.

We have scriptures where it's on record that Muhammed recommends violence, whereas no comparable direct command to hurt others is found in the gospels. That's all I was saying.

I don't know. When I was a Christian, I took the religion as primarily a matter of Christ following and imitating. Hence my focus on the founders of faiths.


Money lenders in the temple?

Jesus forcibly removed the moneylenders, he didn't ask politely, he used violence.



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26 Jun 2012, 4:57 pm

ruveyn wrote:
To all of you new converts to Islam. Strap on your bombs and step right up and get your 72 dark eyed virgins in Paradise.

ruveyn



You do know that there's no such thing as 72 virgins, right?


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puddingmouse
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26 Jun 2012, 5:13 pm

DC wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
You're right.

We have scriptures where it's on record that Muhammed recommends violence, whereas no comparable direct command to hurt others is found in the gospels. That's all I was saying.

I don't know. When I was a Christian, I took the religion as primarily a matter of Christ following and imitating. Hence my focus on the founders of faiths.


Money lenders in the temple?

Jesus forcibly removed the moneylenders, he didn't ask politely, he used violence.


He used violence against a bunch of tables. Muhammad actually killed people.


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26 Jun 2012, 5:37 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
DC wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
You're right.

We have scriptures where it's on record that Muhammed recommends violence, whereas no comparable direct command to hurt others is found in the gospels. That's all I was saying.

I don't know. When I was a Christian, I took the religion as primarily a matter of Christ following and imitating. Hence my focus on the founders of faiths.


Money lenders in the temple?

Jesus forcibly removed the moneylenders, he didn't ask politely, he used violence.


He used violence against a bunch of tables. Muhammad actually killed people.



Was Saul (the guy with the long hair) a Christian?


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puddingmouse
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26 Jun 2012, 6:00 pm

TheWolf wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
DC wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
You're right.

We have scriptures where it's on record that Muhammed recommends violence, whereas no comparable direct command to hurt others is found in the gospels. That's all I was saying.

I don't know. When I was a Christian, I took the religion as primarily a matter of Christ following and imitating. Hence my focus on the founders of faiths.


Money lenders in the temple?

Jesus forcibly removed the moneylenders, he didn't ask politely, he used violence.


He used violence against a bunch of tables. Muhammad actually killed people.



Was Saul (the guy with the long hair) a Christian?


Do you mean Saul/Paul, or Old Testament Saul? If you mean Saul/Paul, then he was a Christian, but he was not Jesus, which is who I was talking about. Saul did indeed cooperate in the killing of Stephen and persecuted Christians before he converted. I think you were going to compare that to the Muhammad ordering executions?


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DC
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26 Jun 2012, 6:26 pm

TheWolf wrote:
Was Saul (the guy with the long hair) a Christian?


Do you mean Samson who got his strength from his hair and destroyed a temple?

He is old testament, but pantene are trying to resurrect him to feature on their next shampoo ad campaign. ;)



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26 Jun 2012, 6:29 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
He used violence against a bunch of tables. Muhammad actually killed people.


Apparently he whipped the money lenders out of the temple, I know I would consider it a violent act if some religious nut started beating me with a whip...



puddingmouse
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26 Jun 2012, 6:31 pm

DC wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
He used violence against a bunch of tables. Muhammad actually killed people.


Apparently he whipped the money lenders out of the temple, I know I would consider it a violent act if some religious nut started beating me with a whip...


http://bible.cc/matthew/21-12.htm

No whipping involved.

He does have a whip in his hand in Renaissance paintings of the incident.


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DC
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26 Jun 2012, 6:36 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
DC wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
He used violence against a bunch of tables. Muhammad actually killed people.


Apparently he whipped the money lenders out of the temple, I know I would consider it a violent act if some religious nut started beating me with a whip...


http://bible.cc/matthew/21-12.htm

No whipping involved.

He does have a whip in his hand in Renaissance paintings of the incident.


The incident is mentioned in more than one gospel:

http://bible.cc/john/2-15.htm

Whipping involved.

So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.