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IRA- heroes or villains?

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Declension
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07 Aug 2012, 7:33 pm

rabbitears wrote:
I do wonder how bombing the Royal Marines barracks in my home town and killing 11 Royal Marine Bandsmen in an unprovoked attack could be considered "heroic".


I'm pretty sure they didn't see it that way. They thought they were at war, and in war "collective guilt" is a concept that everyone accepts.



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08 Aug 2012, 12:57 pm

ruveyn - about "suicide" SS. It is in quotes you see the article? They fought until death many times, like any great soldiers are expected. But they didn't want to die on purpose.



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08 Aug 2012, 2:16 pm

thomas81 wrote:
There is that side to it. I'm the last one to say the IRA were blameless but you need to keep it in context. However, unlike conventional Republican sympathisers I am qualified to criticise this side of the trenches because I grew up in it.


I think you will find that argument gets very little traction 'round these parts.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of regular participants in this forum consider that the only qualifications required to criticise anyone or anything is an internet connection. (present company included)


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08 Aug 2012, 2:19 pm

visagrunt wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
There is that side to it. I'm the last one to say the IRA were blameless but you need to keep it in context. However, unlike conventional Republican sympathisers I am qualified to criticise this side of the trenches because I grew up in it.


I think you will find that argument gets very little traction 'round these parts.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of regular participants in this forum consider that the only qualifications required to criticise anyone or anything is an internet connection. (present company included)


That, and I think people should be cautious about giving out life details, especially not for the sake of some internet debate.


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Tequila
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08 Aug 2012, 2:21 pm

Vigilans wrote:
That, and I think people should be cautious about giving out life details, especially not for the sake of some internet debate.


In fact, that is very much discouraged in general on NI politics forums.



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08 Aug 2012, 2:59 pm

Tequila wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
That, and I think people should be cautious about giving out life details, especially not for the sake of some internet debate.


In fact, that is very much discouraged in general on NI politics forums.


So I shouldn't get into my experimentation with house cats?

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08 Aug 2012, 4:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
So I shouldn't get into my experimentation with house cats?


Helicopters?



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08 Aug 2012, 6:05 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Suicide bombings, Kamakaze attacks are painless deaths and non analogous. The hunger strikers endured months of agonising pain before they succumbed. That takes real bravery.


I don't honestly think it does. I'm never as impressed by martyrs as I'm supposed to be. When I think about Bobby Sands I just feel...nothing.

A group that results to those tactics will never win. You can't guilt trip your opposition with suicide. Also, terrorism doesn't work, either. The only two things that work are actually fighting a proper war, or nonviolent resistence (that includes being nonviolent towards yourself).


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puddingmouse
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08 Aug 2012, 6:10 pm

ruveyn wrote:
thomas81 wrote:

Suicide bombings, Kamakaze attacks are painless deaths and non analogous. The hunger strikers endured months of agonising pain before they succumbed. That takes real bravery.


Or real fanaticism and insanity.

ruveyn


I agree. Starving yourself to death basically says, 'look, we're insane! Can we have our country back, now?'

People who already support those causes see those deaths as some sort mystical sacrifice to gain the favour of whatever gods they think are on their side. People who are neutral on unsupportive just think 'what a bunch of loons'.


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thomas81
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08 Aug 2012, 6:12 pm

Vigilans wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
There is that side to it. I'm the last one to say the IRA were blameless but you need to keep it in context. However, unlike conventional Republican sympathisers I am qualified to criticise this side of the trenches because I grew up in it.


I think you will find that argument gets very little traction 'round these parts.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of regular participants in this forum consider that the only qualifications required to criticise anyone or anything is an internet connection. (present company included)


That, and I think people should be cautious about giving out life details, especially not for the sake of some internet debate.


I really am not bothered who finds out about my views IRL. People who know me already know I am something of an oddball. Besides which the chances of some malevolent person scouring an autism forum to find this information out is remote, to say the least.



thomas81
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08 Aug 2012, 6:16 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

I agree. Starving yourself to death basically says, 'look, we're insane! Can we have our country back, now?'

People who already support those causes see those deaths as some sort mystical sacrifice to gain the favour of whatever gods they think are on their side. People who are neutral on unsupportive just think 'what a bunch of loons'.


The purpose of the hunger strikes was never about getting a United Ireland.

It was about getting the POW status of the prisoners re-instated. Unless my history fails me, I believe that the hunger strikes were victorious.

Moreover it served a more extended purpose of drawing international sympathy to the plight of Northern Irish catholics and international attention to the intransigence of the British administration.


visagrunt wrote:

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of regular participants in this forum consider that the only qualifications required to criticise anyone or anything is an internet connection. (present company included)


I'm probably mis sensing sarcastic humour in this post but i am referring to moral qualifications.



Last edited by thomas81 on 08 Aug 2012, 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

puddingmouse
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08 Aug 2012, 6:19 pm

thomas81 wrote:

My belief is that Scottish independence will be the demise of the Union, because without the Scottish cultural link to Ulster there is no cultural precendence for Northern Ireland to continue its participation within the UK.


Am I right in saying that the odds don't look good for Scottish Independence?


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puddingmouse
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08 Aug 2012, 6:22 pm

thomas81 wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:

I agree. Starving yourself to death basically says, 'look, we're insane! Can we have our country back, now?'

People who already support those causes see those deaths as some sort mystical sacrifice to gain the favour of whatever gods they think are on their side. People who are neutral on unsupportive just think 'what a bunch of loons'.


The purpose of the hunger strikes was never about getting a United Ireland.

It was about getting the POW status of the prisoners re-instated. Unless my history fails me, I believe that the hunger strikes were victorious.

Moreover it served a more extended purpose of drawing international sympathy to the plight of Northern Irish catholics and international attention to the intransigence of the British administration.


I was referring to martyrdom more generally as a tactic, but you are right about the POW status.

It elicited sympathy from a lot of people, but my brain malfunctions and it's the sort of thing that doesn't impress me.


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Last edited by puddingmouse on 08 Aug 2012, 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thomas81
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08 Aug 2012, 6:27 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
thomas81 wrote:

My belief is that Scottish independence will be the demise of the Union, because without the Scottish cultural link to Ulster there is no cultural precendence for Northern Ireland to continue its participation within the UK.


Am I right in saying that the odds don't look good for Scottish Independence?


I think the case for scottish independence is gaining momentum. There is to be a referendum in 2014 with the possibility for actual independence as early as 2016. That would have been unheard of not so long ago.

Precedence enough to rattle some cages on this side of the Irish sea, Alex Salmond is being compared to Hitler by some voices in the Unionist lobby for threatening the Union.



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08 Aug 2012, 7:36 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
So I shouldn't get into my experimentation with house cats?


Helicopters?


Uh... Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant... :oops:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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08 Aug 2012, 9:01 pm

thomas81 wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
thomas81 wrote:

My belief is that Scottish independence will be the demise of the Union, because without the Scottish cultural link to Ulster there is no cultural precendence for Northern Ireland to continue its participation within the UK.


Am I right in saying that the odds don't look good for Scottish Independence?


I think the case for scottish independence is gaining momentum. There is to be a referendum in 2014 with the possibility for actual independence as early as 2016. That would have been unheard of not so long ago.

Precedence enough to rattle some cages on this side of the Irish sea, Alex Salmond is being compared to Hitler by some voices in the Unionist lobby for threatening the Union.


Personally I am a for English Independence from Britain at least autonomy.
But of course from a progressive position rather than a nationalist one.


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