11 Aug 2012, 4:14 pm
puddingmouse wrote:
I once watched a documentary where they asked Brazilians to describe their skin tone and they said things like 'cafe mocha' and 'caramel'. I remember telling a mixed race colleague from Zambia about this (she identifies as black) and she actually found that kind of sad because she sees a lot of value in having a 'black' identity, even if you were mixed.
It has always seemed a bit weird to me that Obama, who is half white and half black, is simply considered black. If someone were to say that he's white, they would get very strange looks indeed, even though by percentage of ancestry that makes as much sense as calling him black.
I'm a bit puzzled by why she would think it sad to identify as 'caramel' or whatever. Why not let people identify as a mix, without worrying too much about what got mixed with what?
Quote:
I read an interview with one light-skinned mulatto from the Dom Rep and he said that Americans are very racist compared to his countrymen, because he 'was treated like a black' in the USA.
Wow. I was considering arguing against your point that it could end up masking racism, but I think this guy proved your point.
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11 Aug 2012, 4:34 pm
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Kjas
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11 Aug 2012, 10:44 pm
puddingmouse wrote:
@ Ancalagon
I know you said that not diminishing racism is a limitation and not a drawback. However, I think one drawback of promoting mixing is that it masks racism. As Kjas pointed out, Brazil is still a racist society, but it is masked because it's hard to distinguish racism from classism. I remember reading a book about the history of Brazil and Afro-Brazilians living in poverty will see their problems arising from class more than race (although the two are linked).
An interesting thing I've noticed is that mixed-race people from English speaking countries are more likely to identify as 'black' and in the USA they had the one drop rule, which reinforced this. In Brazil they have lots of words to describe skin tone. I once watched a documentary where they asked Brazilians to describe their skin tone and they said things like 'cafe mocha' and 'caramel'. I remember telling a mixed race colleague from Zambia about this (she identifies as black) and she actually found that kind of sad because she sees a lot of value in having a 'black' identity, even if you were mixed. Even in mixed societies, certain racial mixtures will be less prestigious than others, and in Latin America, that's people with a large amount of black. In the Dominican Republic, you put your race on your passport, and no-one except people of Haitian heritage puts 'black', even if they are very dark. They put 'dark Indian' instead. It's an overwhelmingly mulatto country, but they don't identify with their African heritage. If you're mixed race, but quite light skinned, you pass as white. Barack Obama would possibly pass as white there. Passing as white is important for social mobility, even though everyone is mixed. It's very different to the European perspective on race. I read an interview with one light-skinned mulatto from the Dom Rep and he said that Americans are very racist compared to his countrymen, because he 'was treated like a black' in the USA. Both societies are as racist as each other, though, for treating races differently.
So I think the way that encouraged mixing can lull people into a false sense of anti-racism is a drawback more than simply a limitation. I know I didn't make it clear why in my OP.
@Kjas, I heard about the idea of 'whitening' Brazilian society, which was practised from the very early days. Gilberto Freyre did come up with the idea of Lusotropicalism though, which was the idea that Brazil was well on the way to creating a mixed master race using it's wealth of genetic material. This was about all-out mixing, rather than 'whitening' the natives and blacks. This is what I found interesting. Though the idea has a Portuguese nationalist element in claiming that the Portuguese were naturally less racist than northern Europeans, and that's why they encouraged mixing in Brazil. This is false, as the reasons the early Portuguese colonisers had for mixing were nearly as racist as the British and Dutch motivation behind segregation.
On another note, I once discussed with a Muslim who claimed that Muhammad encouraged mixed-race marriages as a way of limiting the effects of racism in society. I don't know if that's true. It would mean he was well ahead of his time on that one particular subject. I wonder if it's partly where the Baha'i get the idea from. The oneness of God mirroring the oneness of humanity, or something.
I know you said that not diminishing racism is a limitation and not a drawback. However, I think one drawback of promoting mixing is that it masks racism. As Kjas pointed out, Brazil is still a racist society, but it is masked because it's hard to distinguish racism from classism. I remember reading a book about the history of Brazil and Afro-Brazilians living in poverty will see their problems arising from class more than race (although the two are linked).
An interesting thing I've noticed is that mixed-race people from English speaking countries are more likely to identify as 'black' and in the USA they had the one drop rule, which reinforced this. In Brazil they have lots of words to describe skin tone. I once watched a documentary where they asked Brazilians to describe their skin tone and they said things like 'cafe mocha' and 'caramel'. I remember telling a mixed race colleague from Zambia about this (she identifies as black) and she actually found that kind of sad because she sees a lot of value in having a 'black' identity, even if you were mixed. Even in mixed societies, certain racial mixtures will be less prestigious than others, and in Latin America, that's people with a large amount of black. In the Dominican Republic, you put your race on your passport, and no-one except people of Haitian heritage puts 'black', even if they are very dark. They put 'dark Indian' instead. It's an overwhelmingly mulatto country, but they don't identify with their African heritage. If you're mixed race, but quite light skinned, you pass as white. Barack Obama would possibly pass as white there. Passing as white is important for social mobility, even though everyone is mixed. It's very different to the European perspective on race. I read an interview with one light-skinned mulatto from the Dom Rep and he said that Americans are very racist compared to his countrymen, because he 'was treated like a black' in the USA. Both societies are as racist as each other, though, for treating races differently.
So I think the way that encouraged mixing can lull people into a false sense of anti-racism is a drawback more than simply a limitation. I know I didn't make it clear why in my OP.
@Kjas, I heard about the idea of 'whitening' Brazilian society, which was practised from the very early days. Gilberto Freyre did come up with the idea of Lusotropicalism though, which was the idea that Brazil was well on the way to creating a mixed master race using it's wealth of genetic material. This was about all-out mixing, rather than 'whitening' the natives and blacks. This is what I found interesting. Though the idea has a Portuguese nationalist element in claiming that the Portuguese were naturally less racist than northern Europeans, and that's why they encouraged mixing in Brazil. This is false, as the reasons the early Portuguese colonisers had for mixing were nearly as racist as the British and Dutch motivation behind segregation.
On another note, I once discussed with a Muslim who claimed that Muhammad encouraged mixed-race marriages as a way of limiting the effects of racism in society. I don't know if that's true. It would mean he was well ahead of his time on that one particular subject. I wonder if it's partly where the Baha'i get the idea from. The oneness of God mirroring the oneness of humanity, or something.
They have lots of words to describe skin tone because it is an incrediably important factor in social and class moblity, including today, although histrocially it was much worse. They have attemped to count exactly how many words are used, and every count has come with anywhere from 300 to 400 different terms to describe skin tone.
As you have noted, people who self idenitify as "cafe com leite" (Literally meaning: coffee with milk; used to discribe a light mulatto or mixed but light), provided they have straight hair (also known as "good hair") classify as white if they are light enough. And Obama is definitely not considered black there, but nor is he considered white, therefore Brazilians do not understand why Americans call him black when in reality he is mulatto and it is obvious to them that he is.
Yes, while back home I can classify as mixed (by technical terms), mestiza or white (social terms and distinctions), here I am considered "black". The social treatment is markedly different.
The less prestigious is actually those who have a very high amount of black or indian blood - or both (those who had both, were traditionally in the last place on the social ladder).
The DR has a particularly interesting and very different experience in that regard from the rest of Latin America, although it does make for a good case study to highlight certain differences. The hostilities between Haiti and the DR have lasted over the centuries, and race, language and culture have undoubtably become a part of that and are very much entrenched in the cultural psyche of both countries now.
By the time Gilberto Freyre was around, about 50% of the country was classifed as "white." A huge difference to in the middle of the 1750's, when the overwhelming majority was black (75% being black or mulatto) - I highly doubt he would have proposed the same idea in different conditions of racial majority. Even when the idea was first proposed shortly after the founding of the nation, many of the natives had already died of disease or were still going to succumb to disease and it was known and they were counting on the fact that their numbers were rapidly declining. I think if you look through the idea throughly, he was arguing for this ideal only under specific conditions.
puddingmouse wrote:
I was being flippant. The sexual ideal in Brazil is mixed race, though.
Very well noted.
The sexual ideal is mixed race.
The social ideal is still to be as close to white as possible.
Traditionally, and even now, men who are classifed as white (this applies significantly less to those men who are non-whites) are happy to date, have mistresses or sleep with nergas, mulattas and morenas. However, they still aspire to marry a girl is classifies as "white" or as close to, in Brazilian terminology. The rule is not as strict as in anglo countries, but it is undoubtably the overwhelming majority as an unspoken social rule.
In fact, there is a saying on that subject (which exists in Brazil and other parts of Latin America) which demonstrates the attitude quite well,
(I chose the Cuban version as it is much less vulgar and offensive than the Brazilian version):
"Una blanca para casarse, una negra para la cocina y una mulata para la cama."
"A white woman to marry, a black woman for the kitchen and a mulatta for the bedroom."
Last edited by Kjas on 12 Aug 2012, 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
12 Aug 2012, 3:08 am
I would love to mix with Chinese or Japanese!! 
12 Aug 2012, 7:41 am
12 Aug 2012, 10:47 am
Kraichgauer
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12 Aug 2012, 12:42 pm
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Kraichgauer
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13 Aug 2012, 3:57 pm
enrico_dandolo wrote:
compiledkernel wrote:
Promoting such a thing is basically going to get nearly every NeoNazi and White Aryan group out there to hate you.
Normally, I consider "the Neo-Nazis will be angry if we do X" a very strong argument for pursuing X as a policy.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
13 Aug 2012, 5:11 pm
