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Are humans the most intelligent life in the universe?

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Are humans the most intelligent life in the universe?
Probably Yes 19%  19%  [ 10 ]
Probably No 81%  81%  [ 43 ]
Total votes : 53

auntblabby
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22 Aug 2012, 2:51 am

we are a big fat zero on the kardachev scale. i mean, [on the macro scale] we can hardly even control our own weather with any specificity. :roll: so i kinda doubt it would be too hard for an ET civilization to ourperform us.



ruveyn
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22 Aug 2012, 10:05 am

auntblabby wrote:
we are a big fat zero on the kardachev scale. i mean, [on the macro scale] we can hardly even control our own weather with any specificity. :roll: so i kinda doubt it would be too hard for an ET civilization to ourperform us.


Assuming there are ET civilizations. We have no way of knowing about that one way or the other.

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23 Aug 2012, 1:33 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
Your argument earlier was very persuasive on the carbon thing although I still disagree.
What we are looking for are ratcheting systems that favor or at least allow complexity I don't see why they would have to be made out of carbon.


"In a world where carpenters get resurrected, anything is possible."
--James Goldman, The Lion in Winter

"Have to" is too strong a statement. Physical chemistry tells us a lot about how carbon atoms behave, and what makes them different from most other atoms out there. That tells us that while alternative biochemistries might exist, they are unlikely to exist--and they are likely to be complete outweighed by carbon biochemistry. Could boron do similarly interesting things? Probably--but there's so little of it out there, is it reasonable to expect that it will actually happen? And if it does, will anyone notice in the midst of all the organic chemistry that's taking place?

The principals of natural selection work just as meaningfully on biochemical molecules as they do on organisms. The molecules that are best adapted to their environments are the ones that are most likely to proliferate. Now if you can conceive of an environment in which carbon biochemistry would be impeded, but other biochemistries would not, then there's a whole conversation to be had about what might arise there.


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ruveyn
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23 Aug 2012, 3:06 pm

nominalist wrote:

Second, your comments presume a positivist view of science. I am not a positivist.


Nor do you appear to be a falsificationist.

If I were a sociologist I would not mention it in public or polite company. I would be a closet sociologist and do my best to keep it secret.

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23 Aug 2012, 6:48 pm

visagrunt wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Your argument earlier was very persuasive on the carbon thing although I still disagree.
What we are looking for are ratcheting systems that favor or at least allow complexity I don't see why they would have to be made out of carbon.


"In a world where carpenters get resurrected, anything is possible."
--James Goldman, The Lion in Winter

"Have to" is too strong a statement. Physical chemistry tells us a lot about how carbon atoms behave, and what makes them different from most other atoms out there. That tells us that while alternative biochemistries might exist, they are unlikely to exist--and they are likely to be complete outweighed by carbon biochemistry. Could boron do similarly interesting things? Probably--but there's so little of it out there, is it reasonable to expect that it will actually happen? And if it does, will anyone notice in the midst of all the organic chemistry that's taking place?

The principals of natural selection work just as meaningfully on biochemical molecules as they do on organisms. The molecules that are best adapted to their environments are the ones that are most likely to proliferate. Now if you can conceive of an environment in which carbon biochemistry would be impeded, but other biochemistries would not, then there's a whole conversation to be had about what might arise there.


It's a big place.


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24 Aug 2012, 12:37 am

ruveyn wrote:
Nor do you appear to be a falsificationist.


What you are calling falsificationism is logical positivism (early-20th-century positivism). I am not a positivist of any sort.

ruveyn wrote:
If I were a sociologist I would not mention it in public or polite company. I would be a closet sociologist and do my best to keep it secret.


What a gracious person you are. Do you have a kind word to say to anyone?


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24 Aug 2012, 1:58 am

The Ood are!! hehe


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visagrunt
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24 Aug 2012, 11:13 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
It's a big place.


But the laws of chemistry are universal everywhere within it.


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24 Aug 2012, 11:35 am

visagrunt wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
It's a big place.


But the laws of chemistry are universal everywhere within it.


You are speaking from firm and established ground and thus the burden is on me.
I suggest that "life" is not required to be chemical. Any system that can ratchet has the possibility of being adaptive.

There are plenty of complex systems that are not chemical.


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naturalplastic
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24 Aug 2012, 3:59 pm

There are plenty of complex systems that are not chemical.[/quote]

Such as...?

I mean naturally occuring systems- not electronic or mechanical devices of man.



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24 Aug 2012, 4:03 pm

God I hope not. If this is the best the Universe has to offer we're in trouble.



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24 Aug 2012, 4:11 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
There are plenty of complex systems that are not chemical.


Such as...?

I mean naturally occuring systems- not electronic or mechanical devices of man.[/quote]

The weather, The formation of galaxies, Planetary rings, magnetic fields, Plate tectonics,
The flow of water, The interactions of subatomic particles, anytime you have more than 2 objects interacting gravitationaly. Patterned ground, friction.

Do you need more? :D

Evolution can happen in any system that has variation and selective destruction.


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24 Aug 2012, 4:37 pm

Bear in mind that a few posts back I did posit that we would have to limit our consideration to not only a chemical definition of life, but more rigidly, a chemistry rooted in baryonic matter.

If we start to look at other ways in which energy, matter or antimatter can organize itself into stable, replicating patterns, then we have a whole host of potential complexities, to be sure--but it is not at all clear to me how we would recognize them, let alone define them as life.

When we ask whether oranges are the most nutritious fruit, it's of limited value to opine that spinach might be nutritious, too.


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25 Aug 2012, 10:08 am

visagrunt wrote:
Bear in mind that a few posts back I did posit that we would have to limit our consideration to not only a chemical definition of life, but more rigidly, a chemistry rooted in baryonic matter.

If we start to look at other ways in which energy, matter or antimatter can organize itself into stable, replicating patterns, then we have a whole host of potential complexities, to be sure--but it is not at all clear to me how we would recognize them, let alone define them as life.

When we ask whether oranges are the most nutritious fruit, it's of limited value to opine that spinach might be nutritious, too.


I know I started this line to show I disagreed with that assumption.
I think it is an example of the anthropocentric fallacy to assume that if there is life it looks like us.
Or work on the same principles we do.


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25 Aug 2012, 10:41 am

Some whale species, and maybe octopi, may be more intelligent than humans.



ruveyn
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25 Aug 2012, 10:42 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Some whale species, and maybe octopi, may be more intelligent than humans.


What is intelligence?

ruveyn