Angry Muslims

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My problem with the islamic community as a whole is the way of their approach to problem solving and identification. I know this does not apply to all islamic communities around the world (the Australian National Imam Council for example despises the riots), but it is very common with muslims - and part of arabic-oriental culture in general, I presume - to push these things away and just take no responsibility for them. Like it or not, if you are part of a group, be it religious, political, Star Trek fans, whatever, you have a certain responsibility to monitor your own goddamn people. I am not saying that any of these folks is responsible in a sense of causality, but morally... yes, absolutely. Let me give you an example:
In the past year, us Germans had tremendous problems - and still have - with extremely conservative muslims (salafists) getting more and more younger people among their ranks, and with them starting to participate in questionable actions, as well as posting hate propaganda on the internet and some minor riots. Most muslims I know, as well as statements from the German Muslim Community, were, in a nutshell, that these people who indulged in those actions simply were not muslims. And this is the point that brings my blood to a boil... that is just awfully convenient, isn't it? This is not a productive way to deal with such a problem, and this seems to be a popular way of dealing with them in the islamic-arabic culture.
The fun thing is, though, that most of these extreme islamic communities that just take the Quran literally and feel the need to riot in the streets, they are, most of the time, not welcome in their homecountries as well, and would have to fear being pursued there, so they come to our societies and exist there to fight the culture of freedom that allows them to exist within it in the first place... quite the paradox, if you'd ask me.

Where did anyone do that on this thread?

I'm not just bashing Islam. I'm bashing Christianity, too. It still holds dominant sway in vast parts of the U.S. (see the hold of the Bible Belt - sounds like a very, very cold, repressive and bigoted place to be for atheists and gays) and strict, intolerant interpretations of Christianity pervade much of the Caribbean (a lot of the Caribbean countries simply aren't considered safe for gay tourists and homosexuality is illegal in much of the Caribbean, with violent attacks and abuse of gays a way of life, stirred up by rappers and preachers) and parts of Africa (where, in Uganda, a law has been under consideration for some years threatening gays with execution).

The hold of Christianity on political life hasn't gone entirely away in the UK either and Christian intolerance still exists here. Although it's vastly lessened from what it was, it's still a bloody nuisance.



If you see the postcards in question, they're so utterly dull and inoffensive, only someone pathologically puritanical and repressed could really feel offended, and such people need to be in the loony bin. I can't work out how they get out of bed in the morning.

They should make a Happy Muslims thread .

Supposedly some of my questions caused a bit of a stir. >_>' The post was more of a rant and I tried to show that in my opening statement. There's been many, many threads on the topic of Muslims here in PPR and also the "News and Current Events" forum. I covered many points brought to the discussions before they could be mentioned here, because alas, the same people posts in the threads and their opinions do not change from thread to thread.

I find many people, all over the US, take up the stance against Islam have a tribal mentality of "Islam bad. Christianity good." Even though evidence points otherwise. I'm fine with those bashing Islam if they're also not okay with the Christianity. To me it's asinine to hate only one cheek of the same ass. To say "Islam bad. Christianity good." is ignoring the currents events in America and our struggles with extremism from Christianity. As I mentioned in other threads, I am an Atheist and a LGBT member. This makes the extremism happening in this country very important to me because if extremism wins, guess who they are going after first? They've already gone for people like me. Trying to alienate me from country, taking away my rights and refusing to give them to me.

I find Aaron Sorkin demonstrates perfectly the extremism that is currently taking over America, in his fictional-but-based-in-reality TV show The Newsroom. Dorothy Cooper is a fictional character, however there really are 20 million people like here here in the US. The people Aaron Sorkin quotes are real quotes from real people (don't take my word for it. Google it!)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pKEuonNf44&feature=g-like[/youtube]

We don't have protections from extremism, as someone suggested. It's happening right now as we speak. Notice that the views of our right-wing extremists are not the same views of Jesus Christ, a man who would have most undoubtedly would have voted democrat. Our GOP is no longer the Grand Ol' Party it once was and it's a shame.

There are a lot of atheists in the UK that will attack Christianity constantly (because they know that it won't fight back with threats of violence because the brutality of it has long since dissipated) but will turn round and call you a hatemongering bigot if you attack Islam (because you will receive a sea of death threats and verbal abuse, and will be harassed, physically threatened, assaulted and, in some cases, murdered for your criticism).

I'm an atheist and dislike Christianity as well, but there are parts of it that are harmless and an integral part of our western culture and these should be kept. If you want to have personal beliefs, fine. Don't foist them on everyone else.

Are there any other kind, and if so how many?

ruveyn

... Awesome clip. I rarely have the patience for anything but George Carlin on Youtube, but those were 6 minutes and 12 seconds well spent... I thought that gerrymandering was a thing of the past... It isn't, it just got even dirtier...

The US does have a serious issue with Tea Party nutjobs... Imagine if Rick Santorum, the dark lord of the s**t, actually became president... WTF, not only is WP turning eights and parentheseses into smiley faces... Now I can't *swear*? You [CENSORED] pieces of [CENSORED] and when I find you, I am going to [CENSORED] with a [CENSORED] until [CENSORED, YOU SICK [CENSORED]]...

It does not, however, cause my to modify my opinions on Islam. A common misconception is that it is a "Islam versus Christianity" debate. This might be the case in the US where the concept of separating religion and politics is still up for debate, but in the countries of the EU it is more like "Islam versus Democracy and Freedom".

I think it was done by al-CIA-da. Its funny that the government always claims incompetence in these types of circumstances, but that's just a massive mistake, backing people who are supposed to be our biggest bogeyman. The fact that the results obtained were so convenient for the military-industrial complex makes me generally suspicious about the reality the public receives from the media.

It is an issue here in the US. There those in power calling for war with the Middle East and it made worse by Christians trying to support Israel, who in turn is trying to start a war with Islam. It's not limited to the Republican-In-Name-Only party either, although they certain make the problem much, much worse. The DNC modified the Democrat platform, much to the dismay of half the crowd.

I guess I forgot that Atheism is on the rise in the UK. I recall one study that showed a majority (forgot the exact numbers) of UK are now Atheists or Agnostics. As I'm literally on the other side of the world, I can't speak for what's happening there. Though I know the issues in America are not helping, as American government is not afraid to shift its weight around and will try to bring its biggest ally to the fight, which it already has done. In the case of the UK (I don't know enough about the stance of the other countries in the EU to make a stance), I'd say "Christianity bad. Islam bad." is just as bad as "Islam bad. Christianity good." I take the stance that they can be both good in the hands of reasonable, educated citizens and both can be bad in the hands extremists and uneducated people. In the Middle East and the US, it definitely is in the hands of the latter.

I will take issue that Islam, itself, is standing between democracy and religious tyranny. Admittedly it's not helping. Islam preaches the same messages as Christianity. Just like Jesus Christ, Muhammad supported peace, turning the other cheek, taking care of those less fortunate than you and being respectful towards everyone. Just like how the Tea Party perverted the message of Jesus Christ, the religious extremists of the Middle East have perverted the message of Muhammad. Unfortunately for the typical civilian in the Middle East, they do not have the education, the media or the wide-spread internet access to see how wrong their handlers are.

One of the biggest reasons I take a stand against such an idea is that attacking someone religious beliefs makes matters worse. There was a study (I can't find it right now. Only crap about Atheists debating Christians) that showed when you attack someones religious beliefs so directly, they will retreat even more into their religious beliefs. Making conversion more and more impossible. You will not topple al-Qaeda if the people are backing them and the people will not support you if you attack something so personal as religion.



Do you have citations? Years ago we captured an important al-Qaeda member and he revealed a lot of their plans. Al-Qaeda's wikipedia is a good place to find more information. Not to mention, the attack on the Libyan embassy was on 9/11.

I do agree that the reality the public receives from the media is very suspicious. Look at the typical American. They care more about the American Idol than they do the world. After the attacks on the Libyan embassy, I noticed my local mall had the US flag at half-staff. I then noticed how many flags were NOT at half-staff. Ones on both commercial and residential lots. My faith in humanity lost a few points.

You are aware that you are posting on WrongPlanet, aren't you? Do you seriously think that such an obvious disregard for facts will go unnoticed in a forum populated by people who are addicted to the truth?

I am more than willing (and most certainly able) to engage in a holmgang with you on what Islamic Scripture actually says about the views of Muhammad... So unless you are somehow going to publish a previously unseen work on Muhammad which abrogates every single Quranic verse and every single hadith with 100 percent certainty, you might want to practice this phrase: "I surrender".

Teaser: 4:24, 2:106; 9:5, Battle of the Trench... and the age of Aisha.

I usually try *not* to quote only selective parts of other people's posts, as (IMO) an argument should be present in its entirety for all to see, but Merda taurorum animas conturbit . I also try to keep a more civil tone, but sometimes civility must bow down in the presence of greater virtues.

I completely agree with Vex in the OP, but given the recent tone of the thread I'd like to point out the at the /moderate Muslims/ that make up the majority of Libya are now forcibly disarming the Islamist militias and kicking them out of their compounds.

Religious fundamentalists become dangerous when they have too much sociopolitical support, regardless of the religion. Even atheists can become dangerous in that context; they stop doubting themselves, and they start isolating their ideology from gut checks for human decency. In Libya's case, they vastly overreached; in Egypt's, they may now be emboldened.

They deserve praise for this. Good on 'em.

I do appreciate your considered, eloquent approach, and definitely agree here. From personal, inner experience, and from observation. Attack someone for even a mildly held belief, and you'll likely make them cling to that belief somewhat harder. It doesn't have to be a religious belief - just anything they care for. And when you get at what people hold sacred - religion, country, hometown, family, politics, philosophy, even cultural tastes etc - things can become incredibly entrenched. What's more, the more vocal - or maybe just noticeably vocal - of those who hold a particular belief are on the fervent, extreme end, and those who hold a 'softer' version of the belief in question may be happy in such a situation to let the fervent make the arguments.

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Let's group everything under 'ideology'. Some ideologies make explicit calls for violence, or general unpleasantness. Some implicit. Sometimes it's not mentioned, but is an obvious outcome of following the ideology.

But I really can't help anyone until y'all put on the damn glasses:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXfgtp8LJaE[/youtube]

So what's your solution then? Simply open the doors even wider and hope that things will turn out well in the end? When do you want Islamic immigration to stop? When Islamic immigrants are at 20% and when hold considerable sectarian sway of their own? Perhaps the creation of Islamic parties or election posters being in Urdu (Dutch election literature has been available in Arabic and Turkish) would convince you. A concentrated, brutal and bloody-minded minority can hold a dominating influence if they attain power - just look at Apartheid in South Africa.

Just because you hate your own civilisation so much doesn't necessarily mean that other people should.

Put it this way: if 33% of young white British men openly supported nationalist terrorist attacks on Muslim areas and the National Front was in government, in a country where burning the Union Jack led to at least several years in prison (or possibly death from murderous mobs of vigilantes), where a fifth of British people would be indifferent if a family member joined a murderous racist terrorist organisation and where nearly half of all white Brits want to see the establishment of a Sharia-style system, would you and your left-wing pals be so accommodating and blasé about it? If a Union Jack was burned in Pakistan and that nice Muslim family living in utter fear and terror down the road was savagely massacred by Nazi thugs, would you be downplaying and ignoring the evils of the fascists and not criticising their disgusting ideology? No, you bloody well wouldn't.

That's the problem with elements of the left - they seem to want to embrace every single oppressive political ideology no matter how much it conflicts with their own beliefs, every single horrible, murderous dictator (and yes, I know the right has done this too, but not to the extent the left has), every single backward culture (no matter how vile and disgusting they might find it) but never seem to want to stand up for their own values.

In a culture where unwanted immigrants have rapidly differing values to the majority (particularly when it's tied with supremacist ideological baggage), eventually something must eventually give. The best thing we can do, IMO, is to sort these problems out before they are impossible to solve and we have large parts of Britain that are simply outposts of Pakistan. At the moment, mass immigration feels less like something that people actually want and more like an invasion. With high birthrates (not only from Muslims but other groups as well) and continued mass immigration (absolute insanity, for numerous reasons IMO, and not just to do with Islam - where are the jobs for these people?), you will see an increasingly large minority in the coming decades if it isn't halted. This profoundly worries me.

Still, keep drinking the multicultural Kool-Aid. (Multiculturalism is actually a fine idea in a sense, if it's handled properly and there is a genuine mixing of cultures and where one particular foreign religion/ideology doesn't try to dominate all the others or challenge the views of the majority. It's the eagerness to pander to bigotry - usually, but not always, that of immigrants - and the constant overeagerness not to offend anyone, plus the cultural relativism, that's the huge problem here.)

My solution is to stop bombing them. To stop invading and occupying. That'd be a good start. To withdraw support for dicators, and to not sell arms to them. To engage in good faith in open dialogue. See where that gets us.

Right now, we have a government selling off the UK to anyone who waves the cash at them. We have a government kicking down on the sick and disabled, and who thinks the poor should really just get on with it and die, whose policies will blight and end more lives than an Islamist could ever hope to. We were recently, finally told what we already knew, that there is a longstanding tradition of corruption and conniving between the police, the tories and the murdoch press. We have a police force who can kill who they like and never face censure, and whose immediate response to such events is to lie and slander. I don't need to start panicking about some vague possibility of a down-the-road Islamic State that's going to screw up my life - there's actual stuff actually happening right now, devised and carried out by people who are nominally Christian, in the name of and with the tacit approval of the head of a Christian sect.

'But the Koran says this horrid thing' - I'm sure it does. But why isn't each and every Muslim out slaughtering all the non-Muslims? What stops them? Why, indeed, do lots disagree? Why is the extremism weighted towards the young? Could the invasion and occupation of Islamic countries play a part, and the general hostility and vilification?

The left - I agree with the principle that, where there is racism against Muslims, the left should speak out. Where there has been an attempt to bring them into a more general leftist politics, I'm more skeptical. Where there are leftist Muslims - great. But, in that respect, any move to treat it as a monolith is unhelpful. The left reacts against invasion and occupation. In the realm of mainstream media, such things are presented in brush strokes - the left, if it is to respond, finds it necessary to respond in kind.

Why do you think I hate 'my' civilisation? What is 'my' civilisation?

Re multiculturalism - I should like to say that the idea that my culture is also David Cameron's culture makes me want to vomit in despair. There's always been multiculturalism. It just didn't have a name before.