Page 3 of 3 [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

30 Jul 2013, 9:59 am

1000Knives wrote:
It's not a real argument. Everyone knows life technically begins at conception. So any arguments over abortion on the ends of the whole debate of "what is life" or whatever is pointless.



"Life" is not synonymous with personhood. bacteria have life. They are not persons and never will be. Dogs and Cats have life and they are not persons. Etc. etc. etc.

One of our main body functions is eliminating life which is dangerous to us. We are designed by nature to be killing machines.

ruveyn



1000Knives
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,036
Location: CT, USA

30 Jul 2013, 10:05 am

If you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and the baby dies, you get charged with murder in basically every state in America. Not even manslaughter, murder. How come said pregnant woman is allowed to kill said baby in her stomach if she feels like it, though? So legally, yes, unborn fetuses are life.

It's infanticide. I think the whole argument framing of "lol is it life" is so bunk and ridiculous. Yes, because there's a high chance such a thing will develop into a full blown human being if allowed on it's natural course of development. If someone cuts down your garden plants, you'd be pissed, even if they're not full grown. Every one of us here talking about this started out as said single celled embryo.

This is why I think framing the arguments for and against abortion in the manner of "is it life or not?" is bunk. It's plain and simple infanticide. Historically, infanticide was done pretty often, and it was common, especially in pre-Christian times. All talking about "does life begin at conception" or not just white washes the infanticide that abortion is and gets our minds off it.

Logically, the only real arguments you can have for or against abortion are whether or not killing said future human is justified due to weakness (ie, handicaps, disabilities) that will prevent it's adaptation to the environment. Or whether or not the environment he/she will be born into is bad and the chance of adaptation into anything good is slim (bad parents, not enough money, bad neighborhood/country.) Or, whether or not it was convenient for the parents to bring said life in the world. Hey, bury the daughters. We want a son, right? I mean my uncle's family on my dad's side aborted their second child because they couldn't keep their standard of living with a second child. Hey, kill your kid if you can't have yachts and Audis, right?



XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

30 Jul 2013, 10:22 am

Quote:
Logically, the only real arguments you can have for or against abortion are whether or not killing said future human is justified due to weakness (ie, handicaps, disabilities) that will prevent it's adaptation to the environment. Or whether or not the environment he/she will be born into is bad and the chance of adaptation into anything good is slim (bad parents, not enough money, bad neighborhood/country.) Or, whether or not it was convenient for the parents to bring said life in the world.


Actually, my "argument" is that I am not morally and/or legally obligated to lend my biological resources to another person under any circumstances.

Ultimately, I find that any reason I choose to deny a fetus the use of my body is rather irrelevant.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

30 Jul 2013, 11:34 am

1000Knives wrote:
If you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and the baby dies, you get charged with murder in basically every state in America. Not even manslaughter, murder. How come said pregnant woman is allowed to kill said baby in her stomach if she feels like it, though? So legally, yes, unborn fetuses are life.

It's infanticide. I think the whole argument framing of "lol is it life" is so bunk and ridiculous. Yes, because there's a high chance such a thing will develop into a full blown human being if allowed on it's natural course of development. If someone cuts down your garden plants, you'd be pissed, even if they're not full grown. Every one of us here talking about this started out as said single celled embryo.

This is why I think framing the arguments for and against abortion in the manner of "is it life or not?" is bunk. It's plain and simple infanticide. Historically, infanticide was done pretty often, and it was common, especially in pre-Christian times. All talking about "does life begin at conception" or not just white washes the infanticide that abortion is and gets our minds off it.

I don't think you understand the personhood argument.

It has nothing- nothing at all- to do with whether the embryo is alive. It's whether that life is worth protecting.

In the case of a foetus dying because a pregnant woman is assaulted, here you are effectively being charged for the distress you cause the family. Not because the embryo is intrinsically valuable, but because it is valued as a person by the mother (and others).



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash

30 Jul 2013, 12:01 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
1000Knives wrote:
If you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and the baby dies, you get charged with murder in basically every state in America. Not even manslaughter, murder. How come said pregnant woman is allowed to kill said baby in her stomach if she feels like it, though? So legally, yes, unborn fetuses are life.

It's infanticide. I think the whole argument framing of "lol is it life" is so bunk and ridiculous. Yes, because there's a high chance such a thing will develop into a full blown human being if allowed on it's natural course of development. If someone cuts down your garden plants, you'd be pissed, even if they're not full grown. Every one of us here talking about this started out as said single celled embryo.

This is why I think framing the arguments for and against abortion in the manner of "is it life or not?" is bunk. It's plain and simple infanticide. Historically, infanticide was done pretty often, and it was common, especially in pre-Christian times. All talking about "does life begin at conception" or not just white washes the infanticide that abortion is and gets our minds off it.

I don't think you understand the personhood argument.

It has nothing- nothing at all- to do with whether the embryo is alive. It's whether that life is worth protecting.

In the case of a foetus dying because a pregnant woman is assaulted, here you are effectively being charged for the distress you cause the family. Not because the embryo is intrinsically valuable, but because it is valued as a person by the mother (and others).


If life isn't intrinsically valuable and your worth as a person is determined by how much other people value you, then what about homeless people that have nobody? Its not so uncommon, are their lives without value and not worth protecting?



Max000
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,547

30 Jul 2013, 1:25 pm

blackelk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I'd say if they can't survive independently from the mother, then they're not a viable human.

You can moralise all you want but anything before that then they are in reality, just a parasite.


Except a parasite is a biological definition which the fetus does not fit.


Really? I thought it did.

parasite par·a·site (pār'ə-sīt')
n.
An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.


A fetus fits that definition IMHO.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

30 Jul 2013, 3:24 pm

Jacoby wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
1000Knives wrote:
If you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and the baby dies, you get charged with murder in basically every state in America. Not even manslaughter, murder. How come said pregnant woman is allowed to kill said baby in her stomach if she feels like it, though? So legally, yes, unborn fetuses are life.

It's infanticide. I think the whole argument framing of "lol is it life" is so bunk and ridiculous. Yes, because there's a high chance such a thing will develop into a full blown human being if allowed on it's natural course of development. If someone cuts down your garden plants, you'd be pissed, even if they're not full grown. Every one of us here talking about this started out as said single celled embryo.

This is why I think framing the arguments for and against abortion in the manner of "is it life or not?" is bunk. It's plain and simple infanticide. Historically, infanticide was done pretty often, and it was common, especially in pre-Christian times. All talking about "does life begin at conception" or not just white washes the infanticide that abortion is and gets our minds off it.

I don't think you understand the personhood argument.

It has nothing- nothing at all- to do with whether the embryo is alive. It's whether that life is worth protecting.

In the case of a foetus dying because a pregnant woman is assaulted, here you are effectively being charged for the distress you cause the family. Not because the embryo is intrinsically valuable, but because it is valued as a person by the mother (and others).


If life isn't intrinsically valuable and your worth as a person is determined by how much other people value you, then what about homeless people that have nobody? Its not so uncommon, are their lives without value and not worth protecting?

I am not sure how you got to that from what I said...

Conscious life is intrinsically valuable (or you could argue is instrumentally valuable to the conscious being). Individual lives persistently without consciousness is possesses little intrinsic value.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

30 Jul 2013, 3:49 pm

Max000 wrote:

Really? I thought it did.

parasite par·a·site (pār'ə-sīt')
n.
An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.


A fetus fits that definition IMHO.


Fits like a glove. A fetus sucks nutrition from the blood of its female host.

ruveyn



wreck1
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 129

30 Jul 2013, 3:58 pm

except that on the long term, the fetus or parasite will grow up and quit sucking blood and pay back "with rents". That is what the old people learned from their elders and still today in religios circles.



EmberEyes
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 8 Apr 2012
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 347

30 Jul 2013, 4:12 pm

Id have to say I think the bundle of cells might belong to the human species from the start, but it's not a human being until is lives outside the mother without medical aid.

Until it is possible to put the parasite/fetus in a can and have it develop into an infant outside my body, I don't understand why anyone but I would have a say in decideing what I do or do not do with the lifeform invading my body.

FWIW, there is no reason for anyone to have bio-kids, until all children in this world get what they have a right to;
love, care and attention
Adequat and healthy food
Clean water
healthcare
safety
security
education



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash

30 Jul 2013, 6:00 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
1000Knives wrote:
If you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and the baby dies, you get charged with murder in basically every state in America. Not even manslaughter, murder. How come said pregnant woman is allowed to kill said baby in her stomach if she feels like it, though? So legally, yes, unborn fetuses are life.

It's infanticide. I think the whole argument framing of "lol is it life" is so bunk and ridiculous. Yes, because there's a high chance such a thing will develop into a full blown human being if allowed on it's natural course of development. If someone cuts down your garden plants, you'd be pissed, even if they're not full grown. Every one of us here talking about this started out as said single celled embryo.

This is why I think framing the arguments for and against abortion in the manner of "is it life or not?" is bunk. It's plain and simple infanticide. Historically, infanticide was done pretty often, and it was common, especially in pre-Christian times. All talking about "does life begin at conception" or not just white washes the infanticide that abortion is and gets our minds off it.

I don't think you understand the personhood argument.

It has nothing- nothing at all- to do with whether the embryo is alive. It's whether that life is worth protecting.

In the case of a foetus dying because a pregnant woman is assaulted, here you are effectively being charged for the distress you cause the family. Not because the embryo is intrinsically valuable, but because it is valued as a person by the mother (and others).


If life isn't intrinsically valuable and your worth as a person is determined by how much other people value you, then what about homeless people that have nobody? Its not so uncommon, are their lives without value and not worth protecting?

I am not sure how you got to that from what I said...

Conscious life is intrinsically valuable (or you could argue is instrumentally valuable to the conscious being). Individual lives persistently without consciousness is possesses little intrinsic value.


When does consciousness begins? How do you define it?



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

30 Jul 2013, 6:19 pm

There are many levels of consciousness.

The most basic of these is self-awareness. If you are not aware of your own existence, then you do not have the ability to value it and its continuation. Therefore self-awareness, at the very least, is necessary in order to commit a crime against a person.

I am against killing anything that is self-aware, but some people set the bar higher or lower. For example, some people will willingly kill or be party to the killing of a pig, which is a great deal more intelligent than merely self-aware, but some people object to the killing of anything that is alive, if at all avoidable. In fact, I do actually set the bar lower than mere self-awareness and am against the killing of worms, snails and insects (except to preserve more valuable life, such as hedgehogs).

I have no problem with the position that "abortion is wrong because all life is sacred". I object to the bigoted opinion that "abortion is wrong because human life is sacred".



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

30 Jul 2013, 7:31 pm

Yes, all life is intrinsically valuable. As in, all life has a value greater than zero. But that doesn't mean that all life is equally valuable. You can't deal with the real world if you assign a value of infinity to every life form. I mean, right now, your blood cells are killing bacteria inside your body. How horrifying!



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

30 Jul 2013, 7:35 pm

wreck1 wrote:
except that on the long term, the fetus or parasite will grow up and quit sucking blood and pay back "with rents". That is what the old people learned from their elders and still today in religios circles.


Or maybe it will grow up to be a criminal or a bum. One can never say for sure.

ruveyn



Vexcalibur
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,398

30 Jul 2013, 8:46 pm

1000Knives wrote:
If you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and the baby dies, you get charged with murder in basically every state in America. Not even manslaughter, murder. How come said pregnant woman is allowed to kill said baby in her stomach if she feels like it, though? So legally, yes, unborn fetuses are life.

This is a problem with ruling it as murder and not a problem with abortion.

If you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach, you should definitely go to jail. For the awful agression and for the side effects. If the fetus is wanted by the woman then it is a crime to kill it . Yeah.

wreck1 wrote:
except that on the long term, the fetus or parasite will grow up and quit sucking blood and pay back "with rents". That is what the old people learned from their elders and still today in religios circles.

http://jezebel.com/babies-not-even-wort ... -718813405

Babies are an utter luxury nowadays. The worst economic decision you could make in this age is to have a baby. I am not exagerating. With all the money you'd spend on the baby, you could pay yourself a wondersome retirement. The whole idea that a baby will grow up into an adult that will pay your rent is incredibly unrealistic.

Actually, as designer babies are coming, it is likely that any baby born today will have to compete professionally in the least fair job system ever. Even without the possibility of designer babies, the rich - poor gap will only worsen. If you have a baby today (s)he will most likely not have ANY chance to survive his 40s.


_________________
.


Max000
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,547

31 Jul 2013, 12:36 am

1000Knives wrote:
If you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and the baby dies, you get charged with murder in basically every state in America. Not even manslaughter, murder. How come said pregnant woman is allowed to kill said baby in her stomach if she feels like it, though? So legally, yes, unborn fetuses are life.


Actually that is not correct. In many states you would be charged with simple assault, nothing more. The states that do charge feticide as murder, are mostly anti-abortion states, and I believe that most of those laws were passed in the last 20 years.

There is no historical president for considering feticide to be murder. Support for "fetal homicide" laws are almost exclusively anti-abortion advocates. Their intent is not to protect pregnant women, but to give fetuses a form of legal personhood that can be used to criminalize abortion.

Image