Page 3 of 4 [ 64 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

20 Nov 2012, 2:14 pm

Multi-Culturalism stands for mediocrity. True, if everyone were a superhuman Multi-Culturalism would allow it but Multi-Culturalism does not allow anyone rising above the group.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

20 Nov 2012, 2:19 pm

LKL wrote:
On the contrary; multiculturalism allows for heterozygosity and independent assortment of both beneficial and deleterious alleles, meaning that multi-cultural societies will, over time, become stronger than monotypic, inbred ones.


Then it is somewhat ironic that multiculturalism is frequently invoked when discussing Muslims in the Western world, given the higher frequency of cousin marriages among Muslims.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

20 Nov 2012, 2:27 pm

^one more 15th century custom that they will hopefully overcome with enough exposure to the modern world. Multi-culturalism works both ways.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

20 Nov 2012, 2:41 pm

LKL wrote:
^one more 15th century custom that they will hopefully overcome with enough exposure to the modern world. Multi-culturalism works both ways.


6th - 7th century, actually (or even earlier, but it was included in the Qur'an in the 7th century).

Oh, and an example: 55 percent of Pakistani Britons are estimated to marry first cousins. That's a decrease from the Pakistani average of 70 percent, of course, but a lot higher than a (sane) level 0 percent.

And since the harmful effects of inbreeding can accumulate over time...

On a more on-topic note: Cousin marriages among Muslims also directly undermines the so-called "beneficial" aspects of multiculturalism, as it (by definition) means that there is less interaction between different ethnic groups.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

20 Nov 2012, 2:53 pm

^Clearly not, if the rate has gone down by a third in just a few decades. A few more decades, and they might go through a renaissance and/or reformation.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

20 Nov 2012, 3:17 pm

LKL wrote:
^Clearly not, if the rate has gone down by a third in just a few decades. A few more decades, and they might go through a renaissance and/or reformation.


Unfortunately, I'm not sure it is decreasing at all.

I found this study from 1988 which list a 55 percent cousin marriage rate, just like the more recent claims (low sample size, but satisfies the CLT).
http://jmg.bmj.com/content/25/3/186.full.pdf

The lower level of cousin marriages may thus be the cause of self-selection (the individuals from Pakistan who end up resettling in Britain), and not continuous exposure to the norms of the Western world. And some sources report an increasing rate of cousin marriages among younger Pakistanis in Britain :(.

This is also consistent with the data from my native country of Denmark which suggests that integration of Muslims into society does not improve in subsequent generations.



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

20 Nov 2012, 5:14 pm

GGPViper wrote:
This is also consistent with the data from my native country of Denmark which suggests that integration of Muslims into society does not improve in subsequent generations.


Agreed. Over the last 40 years, the Muslims (by which I mainly mean Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) seem to have become far more hostile and closed-off, not less.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

20 Nov 2012, 5:34 pm

Tequila wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
This is also consistent with the data from my native country of Denmark which suggests that integration of Muslims into society does not improve in subsequent generations.


Agreed. Over the last 40 years, the Muslims (by which I mainly mean Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) seem to have become far more hostile and closed-off, not less.


Which derives directly from their religious doctrines. People who are devout Muslims are ill equipped to dwell in Western societies centered around individual rights and liberties. This things simply do not exist in the Islamic religious context.

ruveyn



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

20 Nov 2012, 5:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Which derives directly from their religious doctrines. People who are devout Muslims are ill equipped to dwell in Western societies centered around individual rights and liberties. This things simply do not exist in the Islamic religious context.

ruveyn


That's why I see that bastard outfit, the niqab everywhere. I really cannot control my lust for everything that isn't covered head to toe in a hideous black sheet.

The more I listen to the likes of Netanyahu, the more I like him.



The_Walrus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

20 Nov 2012, 6:07 pm

Tequila wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
This is also consistent with the data from my native country of Denmark which suggests that integration of Muslims into society does not improve in subsequent generations.


Agreed. Over the last 40 years, the Muslims (by which I mainly mean Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) seem to have become far more hostile and closed-off, not less.

That couldn't be because of the massive amount of hatred spewing forward from the likes of yourself and other Daily Mail readers since 9/11?



JNathanK
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,177

20 Nov 2012, 9:07 pm

...people with cultural differences getting along to get along. It can be achieved successfully by looking past differences and by focusing more on the common ground that all humans share. In some ways, I think there's more differences within the same ethnicity or nationality of people than there is between different ethnicities and nationalities. I mean, I can probably find more common ground with an introvert from a completely different country than I can with many extroverts here in America. I think people are more divided and differentiated within a nations borders by personality and neurology than the entire nation is with a completely different nation. Its just you have to live with these conflicting personalities, even in your own family. Even if you have more in common with some guy you're sent off to kill in a foreign land than your own father or brother, you'd never know it, because you're divided by geography and, most likely, language.

To me, religion is one of the most superficial things that we fight over. Its really not the difference of being Christian or Muslim, Jewish, Atheist or whatever that makes us bad people. If you're a sadistic person and you're presented the opportunity to be sadistic, it doesn't matter what faith claim to believe in. It comes down to how empathetic or how spiritually connected you are as a person.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

21 Nov 2012, 6:29 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Tequila wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
This is also consistent with the data from my native country of Denmark which suggests that integration of Muslims into society does not improve in subsequent generations.


Agreed. Over the last 40 years, the Muslims (by which I mainly mean Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) seem to have become far more hostile and closed-off, not less.


Which derives directly from their religious doctrines. People who are devout Muslims are ill equipped to dwell in Western societies centered around individual rights and liberties. This things simply do not exist in the Islamic religious context.

ruveyn

Jews were pretty self-isolating in Europe before WW2, but are well-integrated and are significant social and scientific players in the US today; short of genocide, how do we reproduce that success?



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

21 Nov 2012, 6:39 pm

LKL wrote:
Jews were pretty self-isolating in Europe before WW2, but are well-integrated and are significant social and scientific players in the US today; short of genocide, how do we reproduce that success?


Not true. Jews partook of the Enlightenment from the time of Napoleon. In Germany there were assimilated Jews and that is where the Reform movement got its start in the late 19 th century.

Many assimilated Jews or people whose parents and grandparents converted to Christianity got an unpleasant surprise when Hitler and his buddies defined being Jewish in racial terms, rather than terms of belief for philosophy. In any case Jews came out of there shell in Germany in the 19 th century. It was in eastern Europe where communities of Orthodox Jews lived in the Stedtles. They were slaughtered by the Nazis.

ruveyn



JNathanK
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,177

21 Nov 2012, 7:43 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Multi-Culturalism stands for mediocrity. True, if everyone were a superhuman Multi-Culturalism would allow it but Multi-Culturalism does not allow anyone rising above the group.


That's just a bunch of rubbish. Multiculturalism has to do with simply being civil with people of cultural, ethnic, and racial differences and not prejudging or disparaging individuals based on what broad social groups they were born into.



JNathanK
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,177

21 Nov 2012, 7:53 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Multi-Culturalism is the destruction of the superhuman.
"Superhumans" are kings, emperors, pharaohs, and slave masters. For thousands of years, the vast majority of humanity lived an existence of misery under the rule of the few who were elevated to a super human status. I say good riddance if this is what multi-culturalism does. If masters can no longer use jingoism and bigotry to control their serfs, that's perfectly fine by me.

BTW, America, a multi-cultural society, has produced some of the greatest innovations in culture and technology through its mixed population. If we have to bring the superhuman to its knees to let true human potential flourish, I say great.



JNathanK
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,177

21 Nov 2012, 7:57 pm

LKL wrote:
^one more 15th century custom that they will hopefully overcome with enough exposure to the modern world. Multi-culturalism works both ways.


Its already happening. I was just talking to a friend who visited Turkey. She said the older people there are very strict adherents to Islam, but the younger people, by in large, are very open to other world views and perspectives. We can all judge the Islamic world based on the isolated instances over-reported on the News, but the media ultimately gives a limited and sensationalized view of reality in general.