Good ol' Buddhism...

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puddingmouse
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10 Dec 2012, 3:08 am

Evinceo wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

The taste of the apple is reality at the moment you have it in your mouth, I think.

If an apple is not being eaten, does it still have a taste?

That boils down to the semantics of "taste"; people usually mean that if you where to eat it, it will have that taste.

Do any two apples taste exactly the same, though - or even different parts of the same apple? Do they taste the same on everyone's taste buds? I think not.

'Taste' is a fleeting subjective reality that only exists when it's being experienced.

MCalavera
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10 Dec 2012, 4:32 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

VIDEODROME wrote:

I feel similar to TallyMan but I'm going in a different direction with Taoism.

I suppose Taoism fills the "Gaps" that science doesn't quite cover. The way an Apple tastes might just be described as the Tao of the Apple.

The taste of the apple is reality at the moment you have it in your mouth, I think.

If an apple is not being eaten, does it still have a taste?

In my opinion, no. Because what it tastes like depends on your brain, not on the apple itself.

True. It's perception so how can anyone possibly know? We are so limited by our senses.

It's not that we're limited by our senses. It's that our senses add new properties to things we experience in various ways.

Moog
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10 Dec 2012, 9:53 pm

VIDEODROME wrote:

When I read things like the 8 fold path or the 4 noble truths it can sound appealing and thoughtful.

But people have also linked Buddhist teachings to the Japanese Kamikaze pilots.

Yes, that was likely the old Samurai traditions. Zen being the religion of the Samurai. Zen enabled them to be tremendously powerful, fearless warriors, and do deeds that no undisciplined mind could do; like fly kamikaze.

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Also, supposedly Buddhism attempted to shrug off the Hindu style caste system but I'm not sure that entirely succeeded. If someone is born diseased or deformed they may be scorned saying they obviously are paying for bad Karma from a previous life.

The caste system seems to be built into the fabric of human society everywhere. It's not quite so overt or pronounced in England as it is in India, but we have our classes; we have our Brahmin who tell us what is right, we have our Kshatriya who police us and fight our wars. Most of us are Vaishyas and Sudras.

To eliminate class structures in human cultures is unlikely.

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Last edited by Moog on 11 Dec 2012, 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

puddingmouse
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11 Dec 2012, 2:56 am

^ You've got to admit that there is a big difference between a class structure which is seen as having metaphysical underpinnings and one who's nature is merely cultural and economic. You can get rid of the metaphysical underpinnings, which is essentially what Sikhism did, whilst retaining the structure itself (it helped that the first Sikhs were originally all of the same caste, though).

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11 Dec 2012, 8:14 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

I have no idea. What is the difference? I'm not familiar with Sikhism.

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puddingmouse
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11 Dec 2012, 8:34 pm

Moog wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

I have no idea. What is the difference? I'm not familiar with Sikhism.

Sikhism holds the tenet that all people are equal before God, even though classes exist in society. It was in response to the Hindu caste system that they developed that idea.

The difference between a caste system that is underpinned by a religion and one that just exists because of society is actually quite big. For instance, there is still sexism in the Western world, but at least in the secular world it is not underpinned by things like Original Sin and women being seen as corrupt for having introduced sin into the world. Can you see how such a doctrine would add insult to injury? It's the same as the idea that social class is related to karma accumulated through past lives, it tells the poor that they should be poor by cosmic rite.

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11 Dec 2012, 9:01 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

What is sexism in the western world underpinned by?

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Can you see how such a doctrine would add insult to injury? It's the same as the idea that social class is related to karma accumulated through past lives, it tells the poor that they should be poor by cosmic rite.

I'm not sure I'm really qualified to talk about karma, and I'm not sure it would be useful.

If karma is real, then it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it. Some people may be fated to experience insult upon injury, and it wouldn't change anything if we believed in karma or not.

'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'

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Master_Pedant
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11 Dec 2012, 9:03 pm

VIDEODROME wrote:

When I read things like the 8 fold path or the 4 noble truths it can sound appealing and thoughtful.

But people have also linked Buddhist teachings to the Japanese Kamikaze pilots.

Also, supposedly Buddhism attempted to shrug off the Hindu style caste system but I'm not sure that entirely succeeded. If someone is born diseased or deformed they may be scorned saying they obviously are paying for bad Karma from a previous life.

This is to bad because I've read interested books from the Dalai Llama, but I've also listened to Christopher Hitchens and even Penn Jillette critizise the Dalai Llama and this way of life. Even accusing old Tibet of allowing a kind of Serfdom.

So as far as Eastern "Religion" is concerned, I'm now exploring Taoism.

I can't help but think there's a fair bit of ghostwriting that goes in the Dalai Lama's books. He was once told to remove anti-gay passages, for instance, so as to not offend western readers.

http://atheism.about.com/b/2008/03/31/d ... cuddly.htm

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puddingmouse
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11 Dec 2012, 9:09 pm

Moog wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

What is sexism in the western world underpinned by?

The remnants of the traditional religious view of gender. It has actually declined with increasing secularisation. It has come unstuck from the worst doctrines (like Original Sin).

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It's not so much karma itself, its the fact that it shoves people into discrete castes - that's it's that organised and final. Obviously, caste goes away when you stop believing in it because people in other societies move between social classes all the time. The belief that they have an imperative to be poor isn't there.

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11 Dec 2012, 9:23 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Moog wrote:

What is sexism in the western world underpinned by?

The remnants of the traditional religious view of gender. It has actually declined with increasing secularisation.

That fewer people go to church is the primary cause of men treating women differently, I doubt it.

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It's not so much karma itself, its the fact that it shoves people into discrete castes - that's it's that organised and final.

Nothing is final to a Hindu, except possibly Moksha.

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Last edited by Moog on 11 Dec 2012, 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Moog
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11 Dec 2012, 9:27 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

The doctrine of karma doesn't disallow social mobility.

Social mobility is on a descending trend here, and I don't know that we could realistically blame it on religion.

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puddingmouse
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11 Dec 2012, 9:34 pm

Moog wrote:

That less people go to church is the cause of men treating women differently, I doubt it.

I think most of societies in the world where women are treated less than equally is due to retaining traditional culture. In the past, it made sense for human survival to have one gender restricted to the caretaker role. This was true whatever the religion of the society, but the religions enshrined this idea in their dogma. That's why even Buddhism is rather sexist - because it came about at a time when it made sense for humans to be that way (religion is all man-made).

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Nothing is final to a Hindu, except possibly Moksha.

It's final enough if it's only restricted to the one lifetime - because you can't honestly be sure if you get more than one lifetime, no matter what you profess to believe. Hinduism banks on their being multiple lifetimes, which makes stuff like the caste system seem fairer than it would otherwise. Imagine you were born a dalit, you therefore have a duty to be treated as a 4th class citizen all your life in the hope that maybe you'll get to be a cow next time - the universe is just, after all. In a similar way, religions like Christianity brush over suffering in this world because there's an afterlife. That sort of thing rubs me up the wrong way.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 11 Dec 2012, 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Moog
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11 Dec 2012, 9:36 pm

Was reading about Sikhism on wikipedia, interesting;

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Based on the total sum of past karma, some feel close to the Pure Being in this life and others feel separated.

Hmm, interesting way to explain why there are theists and atheists.

Since we seem to be having a discussion not about Buddhism, maybe a topic split is in order?

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puddingmouse
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11 Dec 2012, 9:39 pm

Moog wrote:

Hmm, interesting way to explain why there are theists and atheists.

Atheism is an intellectual position, not a state of feeling 'separate' from a higher power. I've experienced plenty of instances of 'spiritual' elation or insight, or whatever. I still don't believe in God.

Edit: if you want to split it off, go ahead. I'm not sure what to split, though.

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11 Dec 2012, 9:45 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

I can't think of much that doesn't rub me up the wrong way.

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11 Dec 2012, 9:45 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Moog wrote:

Hmm, interesting way to explain why there are theists and atheists.

I thought you liked Sikhism. My mistake.

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