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OliveOilMom
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22 Dec 2012, 4:13 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
guns most definatley can be non lethal.

if someone has a knife you can either shoot for the blade and shoot the knife out of someones hand or just shoot for the hand and impair there ability to use the knife.this happened in brattleboro vermont a few years back.a man who was denied bennifits started threatening people with a knife outside of the welfare office.luckely the police station is accross the street from the welfare office.a female patrol officer with the brattleboro police shot the knife staight out of the suspects hand,then male officers jumped all over him so he couldnt reach for the knife again.sitiuation resolved without injury to anyone.

cops are trained shooter:so if you were in the same position you might want to shoot for the kneecaps because this would imediatley cripple the perpatrater.then you hold him at gun untill police arrive,dont pick up the knife because thats evidence.if the knife is still close to the perp kick it away and dont touch it.

the suspect might be in a cast for a while but there is little risk of amputation or death if ambulance is called right away


Most people are not sharpshooters and can't simply "shoot to wound". It's much, much harder to shoot the knife or gun out of someone's hand than it looks on tv. In a situation where you are threatened and you have a gun, you shoot for the largest part of the body, the torso. If you both have a gun, you can't afford to miss.

Or you could simply hire Chuck Norris to stay by your side 24/7. Then you wouldn't need a gun. Unless he gets shot, and then you are SOL.


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22 Dec 2012, 4:22 pm

Chuck Norris is bullet proof. :lol:
He almost got a bridge named for him in Slovakia.
Tasers won't help if some drugs such as PCP,Meth,or Bath Salts are involved,they will just keep coming at you,sometimes they have even been shot and still don't go down.



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22 Dec 2012, 4:23 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
guns most definatley can be non lethal.

if someone has a knife you can either shoot for the blade and shoot the knife out of someones hand or just shoot for the hand and impair there ability to use the knife.this happened in brattleboro vermont a few years back.a man who was denied bennifits started threatening people with a knife outside of the welfare office.luckely the police station is accross the street from the welfare office.a female patrol officer with the brattleboro police shot the knife staight out of the suspects hand,then male officers jumped all over him so he couldnt reach for the knife again.sitiuation resolved without injury to anyone.

cops are trained shooter:so if you were in the same position you might want to shoot for the kneecaps because this would imediatley cripple the perpatrater.then you hold him at gun untill police arrive,dont pick up the knife because thats evidence.if the knife is still close to the perp kick it away and dont touch it.

the suspect might be in a cast for a while but there is little risk of amputation or death if ambulance is called right away

Seriously, you need to stop.

You don't run away zig-zagging from someone with a gun. That's idiotic.

Bullet quality doesn't change physics. Poor quality ammunition may increase the likelihood of malfunctions, but it will still hit the target accurately, especially at gunfight range (under 10 yards).

Exchange of small arms ammunition isn't regulated. A criminal will just go into WalMart and buy ammunition no differently than buying a loaf of bread. A black market for ammunition serves no purpose.

Open carry is bad operational security. While it may discourage a casual criminal, it will merely make you the first target for someone that has the intention to use deadly force. What discourages criminals is the uncertainty of who may or may not have a gun.

Law enforcement and military both shoot to kill. If they pull the trigger, they are employing deadly force against someone who is threatening deadly force. They don't train to disarm. They don't train to disable. They train to put multiple bullets in center of mass in as short a time as possible. It's all about priority of life.

There are enough misconceptions about guns without you spewing crap about open carry and shooting knives out of peoples' hands. You obviously haven't had any training whatsoever. Go take a basic concealed carry class so you have at least a rudimentary understanding of how and when to use a firearm.



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22 Dec 2012, 9:10 pm

abacacus wrote:
Raptor wrote:

It would take a taser that is:
1. Very reliable.
2. Can fire multiple times and rapidly if needed.
3. Effective at distances greater than what they are capable of now.
4. All this and be compact and light as what most of us carry as a handgun.

It would have to posses those qualities and maybe some I'm not thinking about before I would even remotely consider carrying one instead of a handgun.

Gunshots are fairly commonly non-lethal, depending on factors. If it comes down to it you shoot to neutralize, not necessarily to kill. The object being to get them quickly rendered incapable of posing a further threat to you.
It basically boils down to shooting them until the are down.


I'd be happy with five shots over a thirty foot range. I could be wrong here, but I rarely see or hear about people needing to defend themselves over a range greater than that.


I do most of my defensive handgun practice at 7 yards or even as close as point blank because those are the expected distances with a margin added. I also do some out to 25 yards just to be prepared and have gone out to 50 yds for the same reason. The shooting style changes for each distance with the longer shots being slower and more deliberate and preferably from cover if practicable.

Since I hadn't done it in a while, today I practiced with a handgun and my M4 carbine. Both together and separately.


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22 Dec 2012, 9:16 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Bullets can just as easily take knee caps as take lives. Its not mandatory to shoot center mass, just like I don't think a 90 pound girl with a baseball bat against a 300 lb guy would have much luck.


You've either done little or no shooting or a helluva lot more than I have if you can quickly and accurately hit knee caps.
Center of mass is usually the best bet for the obvious reasons.....


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22 Dec 2012, 10:27 pm

Raptor wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Raptor wrote:

It would take a taser that is:
1. Very reliable.
2. Can fire multiple times and rapidly if needed.
3. Effective at distances greater than what they are capable of now.
4. All this and be compact and light as what most of us carry as a handgun.

It would have to posses those qualities and maybe some I'm not thinking about before I would even remotely consider carrying one instead of a handgun.

Gunshots are fairly commonly non-lethal, depending on factors. If it comes down to it you shoot to neutralize, not necessarily to kill. The object being to get them quickly rendered incapable of posing a further threat to you.
It basically boils down to shooting them until the are down.


I'd be happy with five shots over a thirty foot range. I could be wrong here, but I rarely see or hear about people needing to defend themselves over a range greater than that.


I do most of my defensive handgun practice at 7 yards or even as close as point blank because those are the expected distances with a margin added. I also do some out to 25 yards just to be prepared and have gone out to 50 yds for the same reason. The shooting style changes for each distance with the longer shots being slower and more deliberate and preferably from cover if practicable.

Since I hadn't done it in a while, today I practiced with a handgun and my M4 carbine. Both together and separately.


Fun fact: Point blank can be farther than fifty yards.

Point blank is the distance you don't need to correct for. Basically, whatever range your sights are set for is point blank, no matter what that range is.


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23 Dec 2012, 1:09 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
guns most definatley can be non lethal.

if someone has a knife you can either shoot for the blade and shoot the knife out of someones hand or just shoot for the hand and impair there ability to use the knife.this happened in brattleboro vermont a few years back.a man who was denied bennifits started threatening people with a knife outside of the welfare office.luckely the police station is accross the street from the welfare office.a female patrol officer with the brattleboro police shot the knife staight out of the suspects hand,then male officers jumped all over him so he couldnt reach for the knife again.sitiuation resolved without injury to anyone.

cops are trained shooter:so if you were in the same position you might want to shoot for the kneecaps because this would imediatley cripple the perpatrater.then you hold him at gun untill police arrive,dont pick up the knife because thats evidence.if the knife is still close to the perp kick it away and dont touch it.

the suspect might be in a cast for a while but there is little risk of amputation or death if ambulance is called right away


Most people are not sharpshooters and can't simply "shoot to wound". It's much, much harder to shoot the knife or gun out of someone's hand than it looks on tv. In a situation where you are threatened and you have a gun, you shoot for the largest part of the body, the torso. If you both have a gun, you can't afford to miss.

Or you could simply hire Chuck Norris to stay by your side 24/7. Then you wouldn't need a gun. Unless he gets shot, and then you are SOL.
i did not say that its always possible to just wound an attacker,but deadly force should always be the last option


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23 Dec 2012, 1:18 am

adb wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
guns most definatley can be non lethal.

if someone has a knife you can either shoot for the blade and shoot the knife out of someones hand or just shoot for the hand and impair there ability to use the knife.this happened in brattleboro vermont a few years back.a man who was denied bennifits started threatening people with a knife outside of the welfare office.luckely the police station is accross the street from the welfare office.a female patrol officer with the brattleboro police shot the knife staight out of the suspects hand,then male officers jumped all over him so he couldnt reach for the knife again.sitiuation resolved without injury to anyone.

cops are trained shooter:so if you were in the same position you might want to shoot for the kneecaps because this would imediatley cripple the perpatrater.then you hold him at gun untill police arrive,dont pick up the knife because thats evidence.if the knife is still close to the perp kick it away and dont touch it.

the suspect might be in a cast for a while but there is little risk of amputation or death if ambulance is called right away

Seriously, you need to stop.

You don't run away zig-zagging from someone with a gun. That's idiotic.

Bullet quality doesn't change physics. Poor quality ammunition may increase the likelihood of malfunctions, but it will still hit the target accurately, especially at gunfight range (under 10 yards).

Exchange of small arms ammunition isn't regulated. A criminal will just go into WalMart and buy ammunition no differently than buying a loaf of bread. A black market for ammunition serves no purpose.

Open carry is bad operational security. While it may discourage a casual criminal, it will merely make you the first target for someone that has the intention to use deadly force. What discourages criminals is the uncertainty of who may or may not have a gun.

Law enforcement and military both shoot to kill. If they pull the trigger, they are employing deadly force against someone who is threatening deadly force. They don't train to disarm. They don't train to disable. They train to put multiple bullets in center of mass in as short a time as possible. It's all about priority of life.

There are enough misconceptions about guns without you spewing crap about open carry and shooting knives out of peoples' hands. You obviously haven't had any training whatsoever. Go take a basic concealed carry class so you have at least a rudimentary understanding of how and when to use a firearm.
i am a deer hunter,that it.i have no interest in hand gun whatsoever.i have never claimed otherwise.

the story about the police woman was true.
the run option only applies if one has no chance to pull there gun in time or if you dont have a gun.

if someone pulls a gun on you and they have intent to kill not just to rob and you dont have a gun or cant pull it in time and if pulling it would insure your death,then runing and hoping that there not good enough shooter to hit a deadly area or even hit you is your best bet.
if you take my post in context it makes sense


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23 Dec 2012, 2:11 am

adb wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
guns most definatley can be non lethal.

if someone has a knife you can either shoot for the blade and shoot the knife out of someones hand or just shoot for the hand and impair there ability to use the knife.this happened in brattleboro vermont a few years back.a man who was denied bennifits started threatening people with a knife outside of the welfare office.luckely the police station is accross the street from the welfare office.a female patrol officer with the brattleboro police shot the knife staight out of the suspects hand,then male officers jumped all over him so he couldnt reach for the knife again.sitiuation resolved without injury to anyone.

cops are trained shooter:so if you were in the same position you might want to shoot for the kneecaps because this would imediatley cripple the perpatrater.then you hold him at gun untill police arrive,dont pick up the knife because thats evidence.if the knife is still close to the perp kick it away and dont touch it.

the suspect might be in a cast for a while but there is little risk of amputation or death if ambulance is called right away

Seriously, you need to stop.

You don't run away zig-zagging from someone with a gun. That's idiotic.

Bullet quality doesn't change physics. Poor quality ammunition may increase the likelihood of malfunctions, but it will still hit the target accurately, especially at gunfight range (under 10 yards).

Exchange of small arms ammunition isn't regulated. A criminal will just go into WalMart and buy ammunition no differently than buying a loaf of bread. A black market for ammunition serves no purpose.

Open carry is bad operational security. While it may discourage a casual criminal, it will merely make you the first target for someone that has the intention to use deadly force. What discourages criminals is the uncertainty of who may or may not have a gun.

Law enforcement and military both shoot to kill. If they pull the trigger, they are employing deadly force against someone who is threatening deadly force. They don't train to disarm. They don't train to disable. They train to put multiple bullets in center of mass in as short a time as possible. It's all about priority of life.

There are enough misconceptions about guns without you spewing crap about open carry and shooting knives out of peoples' hands. You obviously haven't had any training whatsoever. Go take a basic concealed carry class so you have at least a rudimentary understanding of how and when to use a firearm.
let me explain the history about the knife shooting.about 8 years ago in brattleboro,VT a mentaly distraught man went into a church on greenleaf st and started waiving a knife around.after they asked him to drop the knife and he did not they went with department procedure which as you know is a double tap to the chest area and of coarse the man died and the police did as they were trained.

the family of the man said he was mentaly and the police were wrong to shoot him when they could have woulded him.they sued the brattleboro police department for un told amounts of money.
so that why the brattleboro police changed from the standard double tap to the chest and that what prompted the officer 5 years later to try to shoot the knife out of the suspects hand.


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23 Dec 2012, 2:24 am

i myself was robbed at knifepoint in 2003 while driving a taxi in springfield massachusetts and although i disagree with taxi commisions policy of not allowing taxi drivers to carry guns.in my sitiuation a gun would not have helped me.he came from behind and out a jagged edged knife to my throat and requested my money.had he seen a gun he would surely have cut my throat before i could have pulled a gun.even if the weapon was concealed he still could have seen it if it was in a holster inside my pants.

i also knew a taxi driver who was robbed at gun point,he pulled a knife and put it to the robbers throat and said"you can kill me if you want but i will cut your throat in the process" the robber jumped out of the cab and ran away.

im not saying its always wrong to use a gun in self defense but one must evaluate all options and be able to do it under extreme stress


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23 Dec 2012, 4:48 am

Raptor wrote:
Gunshots are fairly commonly non-lethal, depending on factors. If it comes down to it you shoot to neutralize, not necessarily to kill. The object being to get them quickly rendered incapable of posing a further threat to you.
It basically boils down to shooting them until the are down.


One doesn't count on stopping a person with non-lethal shots. You are contradicting yourself.



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23 Dec 2012, 9:40 am

01001011 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Gunshots are fairly commonly non-lethal, depending on factors. If it comes down to it you shoot to neutralize, not necessarily to kill. The object being to get them quickly rendered incapable of posing a further threat to you.
It basically boils down to shooting them until the are down.


One doesn't count on stopping a person with non-lethal shots. You are contradicting yourself.
you may not completley stop someone with a leg shot,some people are tough and keep coming.but a non deadly area would slow them down which if your not cornered you can run and get out to a safe place to call police


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23 Dec 2012, 10:18 am

vermontsavant wrote:
01001011 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Gunshots are fairly commonly non-lethal, depending on factors. If it comes down to it you shoot to neutralize, not necessarily to kill. The object being to get them quickly rendered incapable of posing a further threat to you.
It basically boils down to shooting them until the are down.


One doesn't count on stopping a person with non-lethal shots. You are contradicting yourself.
you may not completley stop someone with a leg shot,some people are tough and keep coming.but a non deadly area would slow them down which if your not cornered you can run and get out to a safe place to call police


Most people who have firearms are not sharp shooters or marksmen. The place to aim with the highest probability of a hit is the torso. It is the widest portion of the body and there is less chance of the bullet going astray and hitting someone behind the person targeted.

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23 Dec 2012, 11:02 am

abacacus wrote:

Fun fact: Point blank can be farther than fifty yards.

Point blank is the distance you don't need to correct for. Basically, whatever range your sights are set for is point blank, no matter what that range is.


Many people who handle fire arms have rotten trigger technique. They yank on the trigger instead of a slow smooth pull. This means off target shots. For someone with punk trigger handling point blank would be closer rather than farther.

ruveyn



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23 Dec 2012, 11:04 am

ruveyn wrote:
abacacus wrote:

Fun fact: Point blank can be farther than fifty yards.

Point blank is the distance you don't need to correct for. Basically, whatever range your sights are set for is point blank, no matter what that range is.


Many people who handle fire arms have rotten trigger technique. They yank on the trigger instead of a slow smooth pull. This means off target shots. For someone with punk trigger handling point blank would be closer rather than farther.

ruveyn


That tells me most people with firearms shouldn't have them.


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23 Dec 2012, 11:06 am

abacacus wrote:
Raptor wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Raptor wrote:

It would take a taser that is:
1. Very reliable.
2. Can fire multiple times and rapidly if needed.
3. Effective at distances greater than what they are capable of now.
4. All this and be compact and light as what most of us carry as a handgun.

It would have to posses those qualities and maybe some I'm not thinking about before I would even remotely consider carrying one instead of a handgun.

Gunshots are fairly commonly non-lethal, depending on factors. If it comes down to it you shoot to neutralize, not necessarily to kill. The object being to get them quickly rendered incapable of posing a further threat to you.
It basically boils down to shooting them until the are down.


I'd be happy with five shots over a thirty foot range. I could be wrong here, but I rarely see or hear about people needing to defend themselves over a range greater than that.


I do most of my defensive handgun practice at 7 yards or even as close as point blank because those are the expected distances with a margin added. I also do some out to 25 yards just to be prepared and have gone out to 50 yds for the same reason. The shooting style changes for each distance with the longer shots being slower and more deliberate and preferably from cover if practicable.

Since I hadn't done it in a while, today I practiced with a handgun and my M4 carbine. Both together and separately.


Fun fact: Point blank can be farther than fifty yards.

Point blank is the distance you don't need to correct for. Basically, whatever range your sights are set for is point blank, no matter what that range is.


"Point blank" has multiple definitions.

point-blank (pointblngk)
adj.
1. Aimed straight at the mark or target without allowing for the drop in a projectile's course.
2.
a. So close to a target that a weapon may be aimed directly at it: point-blank range.
b. Close enough so that missing the target is unlikely or impossible: a point-blank shot.
3. Straightforward; blunt: a point-blank accusation.
adv.
1. With a straight aim; directly: fired point-blank at the intruder.
2. Without hesitation, deliberation, or equivocation: answered point-blank.


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