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thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 11:58 am

Fnord wrote:
"Wage Slave" = Someone who believes that he or she should be paid more for doing less, but who does not have what it takes to successfully compete for a position that will actually pay more for less work (Syn.: "Goldbricker", Sandbagger", "Slacker", "Whiner", et cetera.)


Higher wages aren't necessarilly the only greivance of a wage slave. There is also unreasonable hours, diminished workplace rights and an absence of opportunities for self improvement and self embetterment.

Its funny, the first ones who dismiss the idea that wage slavery exists usually aren't the ones who are hard up.


Fnord wrote:
"It's called "Competing for the Job", and if you can't compete, then you may as well just stay home and whine about how "Life is soooooo unfair!"

its a competition in the same way that being stuck at the back of small room full of people where the door is only wide enough for one person is a competition. I don't want people to be arbitrarilly promoted and afforded higher wages. I want meritocracy. Not a dictatorship of hereditary money and sychophant shysters that can massage the system.


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thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 12:08 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Meh, those who actually do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay get nowhere in life.
.


^

i think you and I are on a similar wavelength. Then it is the bankers and parasitic economic spectators who contribute nothing tangible either in terms of work or produce that are running off with the spoils of society.

Thats why this idea of "keep your head down and run the course" lauded by certain individuals is fast becoming redundant.


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Last edited by thomas81 on 26 Feb 2013, 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ArrantPariah
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26 Feb 2013, 12:09 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
"It's called "Competing for the Job", and if you can't compete, then you may as well just stay home and whine about how "Life is soooooo unfair!"

its a competition in the same way that being stuck at the back of small room full of people where the door is only wide enough for one person is a competition. I don't want people to be arbitrarilly promoted and afforded higher wages. I want meritocracy. Not a dictatorship of hereditary money and sychophant shysters that can massage the system.


That is the reality, though. Were not going to get meritocracy.



thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 12:13 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
"It's called "Competing for the Job", and if you can't compete, then you may as well just stay home and whine about how "Life is soooooo unfair!"

its a competition in the same way that being stuck at the back of small room full of people where the door is only wide enough for one person is a competition. I don't want people to be arbitrarilly promoted and afforded higher wages. I want meritocracy. Not a dictatorship of hereditary money and sychophant shysters that can massage the system.


That is the reality, though. Were not going to get meritocracy.


those who make peaceful change impossible will make violent revolution inevitable

JFK


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26 Feb 2013, 1:14 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
So Fnord, anyone who cannot get through a job interview should starve to death? I knew you were callous and selfish, but I didn't realise to what degree. (I am in full time education and hold down two jobs)

If they can't support themselves, then they should rely on their families and friends to support them, then the System.

But if the System fails them, their families fail them, their friends fail them, and they fail themselves, what else is left; criminal activity?

Certainly, they can not rely on the churches anymore...


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26 Feb 2013, 1:18 pm

So do you agree that we need societal provisions for those unable to find work so as to reduce the risk of people resorting to crime to stay alive?



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26 Feb 2013, 3:45 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
So do you agree that we need societal provisions for those unable to find work so as to reduce the risk of people resorting to crime to stay alive?

Not specifically. What we need is a system that can and will provide work for those who are able, and a minimum of social support for those who are not.

So maybe the saying of Paul of Tarsus should be amended to read, "Those who do not work shall not eat as much as those who do".

No work = Subsistence living only.

Subsistence = Basic food, education, lodging, and preventive medical care.

Work = Subsistence plus whatever else you can earn - the more you earn, the better your quality of life.


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thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 3:48 pm

Fnord wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
So do you agree that we need societal provisions for those unable to find work so as to reduce the risk of people resorting to crime to stay alive?

Not specifically. What we need is a system that can and will provide work for those who are able, and a minimum of social support .


I agree with you up until this extent, however what we do not need is a system that provides work for works sake, what we need is a system which provides work which maximises and utilises each human being to their full potential while giving them fair opportunity to embetter or alternate themselves.


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26 Feb 2013, 3:49 pm

The biblical work ethic states that hard work is required. machines that ease the burden of labor are considered unbiblical because it destroys the work ethic.



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26 Feb 2013, 4:00 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
The biblical work ethic states that hard work is required. machines that ease the burden of labor are considered unbiblical because it destroys the work ethic.

Then you are sinning every time you switch on your computer, a lamp, a furnace, a stove, or any other modern appliance that runs on anything but muscle power.


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thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 4:03 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
The biblical work ethic states that hard work is required. machines that ease the burden of labor are considered unbiblical because it destroys the work ethic.

Manual slugging is not a synonym for hard work. There are different ways of working hard. Human beings are at their most productive when they are in roles which require artistry, subjective judgement, sportsmanship, abstract thought, moral decisions, factual processing and logic. Abolishing the institution of physical human labour and menial graft merely serves to unlock the unrealised collective potential of the human living experience.


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26 Feb 2013, 4:05 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
So do you agree that we need societal provisions for those unable to find work so as to reduce the risk of people resorting to crime to stay alive?

Not specifically. What we need is a system that can and will provide work for those who are able, and a minimum of social support .
I agree with you up until this extent, however what we do not need is a system that provides work for works sake ...

Oh, absolutely! Hiring a person to dig a hole just so you can hire another person to fill the hole back up is a ludicrous waste of human effort.

thomas81 wrote:
... what we need is a system which provides work which maximises and utilises each human being to their full potential while giving them fair opportunity to embetter or alternate themselves.

That pretty much embellishes on the system that I proposed. As long as free education is provided to all, each person has the opportunity for self-improvement. Even a physically disabled person should be given free access to a university education, as he or she may develop into the next Stephen Hawking!


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26 Feb 2013, 4:06 pm

Next time I'm going to take that good paying drywall hanging job and if my boss says I am too slow I will tell him to buy me a robot.



thomas81
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26 Feb 2013, 4:16 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Next time I'm going to take that good paying drywall hanging job and if my boss says I am too slow I will tell him to buy me a robot.


A point i like to use is the following classroom story. In school, my class had to 'vote' for their ideal job and we drew a histogram of the results. People voted for things like Astronaut, racing driver, rock star, doctor etc. No one chose 'bad jobs' like factory worker or rubbish man (garbage man).

Everyone, as a child had an 'ideal job' but due to the nature of the system, these dreams are quickly vanquished due to the practicalities inherent in our inequal society and we are forced to give them up.

In the sort of society i envision one would be able to pursue these things from the point of school to signing their work contract.


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26 Feb 2013, 4:26 pm

Here is the context of Paul's original statement.

2 Thessalonians 3 wrote:
Our friends, we command you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to keep away from all believers who are living a lazy life and who do not follow the instructions that we gave them. You yourselves know very well that you should do just what we did. We were not lazy when we were with you. We did not accept anyone's support without paying for it. Instead, we worked and toiled; we kept working day and night so as not to be an expense to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to demand our support; we did it to be an example for you to follow. While we were with you, we used to tell you, “Whoever refuses to work is not allowed to eat.”

We say this because we hear that there are some people among you who live lazy lives and who do nothing except meddle in other people's business. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ we command these people and warn them to lead orderly lives and work to earn their own living.

But you, friends, must not become tired of doing good. It may be that some there will not obey the message we send you in this letter. If so, take note of them and have nothing to do with them, so that they will be ashamed. But do not treat them as enemies; instead, warn them as believers.


It represents a bit of a shift from
John 6 wrote:
Jesus went across Lake Galilee (or, Lake Tiberias, as it is also called). A large crowd followed him, because they had seen his miracles of healing the sick. Jesus went up a hill and sat down with his disciples. The time for the Passover Festival was near. Jesus looked around and saw that a large crowd was coming to him, so he asked Philip, “Where can we buy enough food to feed all these people?” ( He said this to test Philip; actually he already knew what he would do.)

Philip answered, “For everyone to have even a little, it would take more than two hundred silver coins[a] to buy enough bread.”

Another one of his disciples, Andrew, who was Simon Peter's brother, said, “There is a boy here who has five loaves of barley bread and two fish. But they will certainly not be enough for all these people.”

“Make the people sit down,” Jesus told them. (There was a lot of grass there.) So all the people sat down; there were about five thousand men. Jesus took the bread, gave thanks to God, and distributed it to the people who were sitting there. He did the same with the fish, and they all had as much as they wanted. When they were all full, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces left over; let us not waste a bit.” So they gathered them all and filled twelve baskets with the pieces left over from the five barley loaves which the people had eaten.


Compared to Jesus, Paul of Tarsus was just a busybody sourpuss who couldn't perform any miracles.

Jesus wrote:
I am the bread of life. Those who come to me will never be hungry; those who believe in me will never be thirsty.



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26 Feb 2013, 4:28 pm

I don't know how to fit into the musicians lifestyle. I thought it was like Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" but nobody could understand what I was talking about.