A criticism of Objectivism
/\ I agree.
The cold heartless hierarchy obsessed right-wing snobs on this board should stop their harassing behaviour...
One of them must be the biggest snob on this forum.
Besides, Ayn Rand was a self-aggrandizing elitist dimwit who hated altruism or the slightest notion of common fairness with a passion, right?
And the doofus Dox47 cannot understand why you think "libertarians" like ruveyn and Fnord are selfish pricks.
As I've already pointed out, Capitalism is more Objectivist than Marxist.
Criticizing Objectivism without comparing its to Marxism is like criticizing Education without comparing it to Ignorance.
Quoted for posterity.
If you're not a Marxist, then why attack Capitalism? Even Socialist polities recognize that they can not maintain their economies without capitalistic methods.
Who's insisting? It is simply a matter of fact that old posts do get referred to, and often - That's what the "Quote" button is for.
Did the Man who Invented the Green Revolution do it with gold? Was it the gold what did it? Was it that he was sitting on a pile of cash?
He did it with brains and hard work. Almost everything valuable is first created by brains and hard work (that means concentrated mental focus over extended periods of time). The products of brains and hard work are then replicated by brute muscular Proles.
ruveyn
Before that Lords had to direct labor, to produce enough to feed labor. It was hard to gather enough extra labor to build a castle for defense, and make a few weapons. No one got rich, at least they ate.
Crown Monopolies made the King rich, but took the profit from labor.
The Guilds did manage to hold on to some of their wealth through production, and Skill plus Capital produced Industry, making better use of labor.
When Government runs the economy we are at a state of constant war, where taxes go to support the war machine. The American government spends half of income plus on war production.
There are more useful things government can spend money on, like repairing and modernizing our infrastructure. The problem is money is not spent on things that are not deemed profitable in the short term. The national highway system and even the railroad system developed in the 19th century wouldn't have happened without government. On a certain scale cooperation has to happen or nothing gets done.
Once nobody else has any money beyond subsistence there's no other option. There's no way to have a capitalist society without taxes.
That works well when technology is constantly advancing. If the advance of technology slows down growth becomes an unsustainable ponsi scheme. I don't think it's a coincidence that most economic crashes in this country followed a decade or two after a major technological breakthrough lead to an explosion in new industry. The initial exuberance leads to an overshoot bubble that collapses once an industry matures and leans itself down through the process of competition and economies of scale.
This growing is what keeps it working, and it never happens with State Run Systems. Their first view is protectionist.
And because growth can't continue unabated for all eternity we have to accept that the system may collapse at some point. I'd prefer to have a political system that allows adaptation to changing conditions than one that forces a lid on a boiling cauldron until it explodes. All states that have attempted to run on rigid adherence to a single ideology have failed or caused upheaval that lead to massive implementation of state force. What happened with communism will also happen with a country founded on "objectivism". The people who don't like that system will have to be forcibly repressed and excluded from the political process, not unlike any other totalitarian state.
Compared to what? Our labor force is more productive than it has ever been in the past due to increased efficiency and automation. Some people are becoming poorer but nobody is becoming lazier.
Every city now has Red Zones, where by location, or time of day, are places to avoid.
And that is what the beginning of the collapse of civil society looks like. If everyone decides to throw their arms in the air and do nothing the future will be pretty grim. Too grim to justify having children. Even if you happen to be one of the wealthy your offspring will not necessarily be able to escape.
The next class, useless workers, who think they are entitled to a job, now make up 10% of the population who will never work again.
Next up, useless but working, who have been getting declining wages for 40 years.
What do you advocate, euthanasia? Seriously! There is plenty of work people could be doing. The problem is a lack of profitable work.
Which is why employer provided healthcare should be ditched completely. There are other systems that actually work. The problem is politics and special interests demanded reform that is a slow continuous change to a broken system rather than a complete reworking from the ground up. The latter would have been better but unfortunately the political will was missing.
Local business is broke, those who can quit, those with a lease are just running out the clock.
The Objectivist has to see this as an oppertunity, to avoid all the hopeless people and do something that gives a better deal to their customers, without paying for all the failures.
That's fine as a personal philosophy but an entire country can't be run on pure self interest unless you're itching for Mad Max.
I would not walk over their bodies to do what I do, I would hire a sidewalk scraper to clean it up.
How are you going to get business in such a lovely world? Why would I want to have to walk over dead bodies or risk being mugged to be your customer?
Today I think we have turned a corner. People are generally literate and this makes them less accepting of barbarism. Expect the "non productive" to fight back and kill you if you try to kill them. It's not inconsistent with their own self interest to do anything in the name of survival, including violence or disregard of the law. This is why objectivism won't work.
The main economy is protected by the government. Nothing is done for the new economy.
I am trying to improve the world, but it is my sworn enemy.
So my Objective is more important to me than all of everyones needs.
It's a good thing no single person is required to deal with everyone's needs. We work together and create systems that deal with the problem. The alternative is Mad Max where not even the elite are able to thrive.
Good luck with that.
Quoting your incredibly hypocritical criticism, without comment, in the same thread in which you made it is now"dragging up old sh*t"?
Good luck with that moderator report.
I am a hypocrite for taking issue when YOU, with no provocation, decide start something personally with me?
Quoting your incredibly hypocritical criticism, without comment, in the same thread in which you made it is now"dragging up old sh*t"?
Good luck with that moderator report.
I am a hypocrite for taking issue when YOU, with no provocation, decide start something personally with me?
You made a statement that is highly at odds with your behavior; I noted it without comment.
If you want to see that as starting something, that's on you.
_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.
- Rick Sanchez
The cold heartless hierarchy obsessed right-wing snobs on this board should stop their harassing behaviour...
One of them must be the biggest snob on this forum.
Besides, Ayn Rand was a self-aggrandizing elitist dimwit who hated altruism or the slightest notion of common fairness with a passion, right?
And the doofus Dox47 cannot understand why you think "libertarians" like ruveyn and Fnord are selfish pricks.
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or serious but they are not libertarians. Being a secular anti-red does not automatically not make one a libertarian. Fnord supported Obama's re-election and ruveyn has a "bombs first, questions later" stance on foreign policy.
Last edited by marshall on 29 Mar 2013, 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quoting your incredibly hypocritical criticism, without comment, in the same thread in which you made it is now"dragging up old sh*t"?
Good luck with that moderator report.
I am a hypocrite for taking issue when YOU, with no provocation, decide start something personally with me?
You made a statement that is highly at odds with your behavior; I noted it without comment.
If you want to see that as starting something, that's on you.
I'm not here to play games with you. What's in the past is in the past. You seem to have a personal problem with me and want to hold a grudge forever. If that's the case I'll do likewise with you. I also think there is a small difference between reacting with anger to insensitive and mean spirited nastiness and being a jerk just because you can.
^
What I'm getting is that you think it's okay for YOU to act obnoxious because you think the people you do it to deserve it, and possibly also because you have an anger problem. Is that about the size of it?
_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.
- Rick Sanchez
Did the Man who Invented the Green Revolution do it with gold? Was it the gold what did it? Was it that he was sitting on a pile of cash?
He did it with brains and hard work. Almost everything valuable is first created by brains and hard work (that means concentrated mental focus over extended periods of time). The products of brains and hard work are then replicated by brute muscular Proles.
ruveyn
I thought that Wealthy People are responsible for all good! People sitting on piles of gold or piles of cash and we owe them everything! This Green Revolution character certainly did not get his magic through his cash.
RushKing
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Marxists don't have a monopoly on anti-capitalist thought. There is more to anti-capitalism than state 'socialism'.
There is
Mutualism
Technocracy
Agorism
Syndicalism
Anarcho-syndicalism
Anarcho-collectivism
Anarcho-communism
Anarcho-primitivism
Green anarchism
Egoist anarchism
off the top of my head.
George Orwell can respond to Fnord better than I can...
It is not very difficult to see that this idea is rooted in the fear of progress. If there is nothing new under the sun, if the past in some shape or another always returns, then the future when it comes will be something familiar. At any rate what will never come—since it has never come before—is that hated, dreaded thing, a world of free and equal human beings. Particularly comforting to reactionary thinkers is the idea of a cyclical universe, in which the same chain of events happens over and over again. In such a universe every seeming advance towards democracy simply means that the coming age of tyranny and privilege is a bit nearer. This belief, obviously superstitious though it is, is widely held nowadays, and is common among Fascists and near-Fascists.
In fact, there are new ideas. The idea that an advanced civilization need not rest on slavery is a relatively new idea, for instance: it is a good deal younger than the Christian religion. But even if Chesterton’s dictum were true, it would only be true in the sense that a statue is contained in every block of stone. Ideas may not change, but emphasis shifts constantly. It could be claimed, for example, that the most important part of Marx’s theory is contained in the saying: ‘Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.’ But before Marx developed it, what force had that saying had? Who had paid any attention to it? Who had inferred from it—what it certainly implies—that laws, religions and moral codes are all a superstructure built over existing property relations? It was Christ, according to the Gospel, who uttered the text, but it was Marx who brought it to life. And ever since he did so the motives of politicians, priests, judges, moralists and millionaires have been under the deepest suspicion—which, of course, is why they hate him so much.
http://www.telelib.com/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19440225.html
What's really strange to me is this idea that economic "growth" of capitalism will just keep on going for the rest of eternity. To me the party coming to an end is not a question of if but when. Will it be 50, 100, 200, 500 years? We live in a unique time where we're so accustomed to things always getting better, progressing, etc. Maybe we've lulled ourselves into complacency.
What's really strange to me is this idea that economic "growth" of capitalism will just keep on going for the rest of eternity. To me the party coming to an end is not a question of if but when. Will it be 50, 100, 200, 500 years? We live in a unique time where we're so accustomed to things always getting better, progressing, etc. Maybe we've lulled ourselves into complacency.
Right There! That is the main flaw in the capitalist mode of economics. It requires exponential growth forever and a day, and this is not possible in a closed universe were entropy must triumph in the end.
The right way to go is to find a maintainable steady state (even an oscillating state that varies around a maintainable level. It is like set the thermostat to a temperature that the furnace can deliver without wrecking itself over the long haul.
ruveyn
In fifty years we will need twice the farmland, By 2040 or sooner, there will not be enough fresh water, most of which goes for crops.
We have looted the oceans, all major fish stocks are in sorry shape, and the water is fouled.
Most of the population growth is happening among the poorest people.
By 2050 Nigeria will have more people than the United States.
World population increase will all be in sub Saharan Africa, South America, and Southeast Asia.
China and India have fifty years of dirty industrial development ahead of them, and we are downwind. That is the source of global warming.
Nothing like this has ever existed before.
It does not matter what political, economic, or religious system, the results will be the same.
All of the prior models, when Rome fell, all Romans vanished. In three waves of the Black Death, most of Europe vanished. Within the last hundred years there have been famines in China and Russia, that killed more than WWII, and so did the Spanish Flu of 1918.
While WWII marks the highpoint of human mass murder, nature did it twice in the twenty-five years before. Columbus might have killed half that by landing in south America, bringing European disease.
The result will be people will die sooner, leaving the younger, who are the ones who have children, and can double the population in a couple of years.
Middle age is now forty, it will drop to fifteen.
She will be fifteen, have a child hanging on her knee, another in her arms, and another in her belly. Life will be just as it was 50,000 years ago.
The main difference will be, 50,000 years ago her kind numbered between five and ten thousand. In 2050 they will number ten billion.
Humans will become rational, they will no longer kill over politics, religion, economics, they will kill for food. Even if they kill ten to twenty percent a year, a young population can replace that in births.
It is not a primitive state, the Aztecs had Flower Wars, where they captured warriors, took them home, offered their hearts to the sun god, then butchered them and gave them to the people to eat. They had few domestic animals, lacked iron in their diet, and meat gave them power.
They also had festivals where the feast was a roasted child.
They had a system, art, music, poetry, they were great builders, had far flung trade empires, were large scale farmers, but it was all based on cannibalism.
In Europe during the dark ages the remains of cooked children were often found, it was blamed on dragons. The Greeks wrote of shepard boys found stript of their meat, it was blamed on Pan.
The future will be like the past, but on a larger scale.
Where historical records are a bit more open, it was the dumb, lazy, ugly that got eaten as children, which improved the species. Boys sent with a herd of goats up the mountain to protect them from wolves, lions, goat nappers, were expendable. They were the slowest of the lot.
It is our time which is strange, the first with no direct connection to food production, depending on fixed structures, houses, roads, cars, that all have upkeep. Only recently do people own more than they can carry.
People used to own two sets of clothes, one to work in, one for church, funerals, and being buried in.
Now a kid going to school carries a cell phone, tablet, about $1500 in technology. They are being educated for a world with no jobs?
In Africa there are people who could live for five years on the value of the kids electronics and clothes. These two systems will collide.
The US, Canada, Europe, Australia, are less than a billion, and stable to declining. The other six billion are growing rapidly.
There are fifteen million illegal Aztecs in the US.
Objectivism says that is the background, and doing what you want has to deal with it, not by agreeing, paying off, but to find a way to do what you want, and not get eaten.
Thinking I should support it because they are the majority is nuts.
Find someone else to eat.
