Capitalism's Destruction of Childhood - By: Dr. Gabor Mate

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Robdemanc
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16 Apr 2013, 3:01 pm

Fnord wrote:

Robdemanc wrote:

Tensu wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

Tensu wrote:

I don't want 99.99% of what I see advertised.

That's only because you're not a NT.

NTs have free will too. And if there exists a person who lusts after every possession they see, I doubt getting rid of ads would help them significantly.

Agreed. But this is commercialism, not capitalism.

Yes you are correct. Capitalism is not the core problem here, consumerism isn't even the problem, it is advertising and the idea of re-consumption, which is borne out of greed for more profit.

Fnord
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16 Apr 2013, 3:07 pm

Robdemanc wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Robdemanc wrote:

Tensu wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

Tensu wrote:

I don't want 99.99% of what I see advertised.

That's only because you're not a NT.

NTs have free will too. And if there exists a person who lusts after every possession they see, I doubt getting rid of ads would help them significantly.

Agreed. But this is commercialism, not capitalism.

Yes you are correct. Capitalism is not the core problem here, consumerism isn't even the problem, it is advertising and the idea of re-consumption, which is borne out of greed for more profit.

Kids are greedy and selfish enough without being brainwashed by advertisements.

8bitKnight
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16 Apr 2013, 8:06 pm

visagrunt wrote:

8bitKnight wrote:

Do you really know him IRL as a friend? If so the part I disagree on is the parts where he blames the parents of children for causing things like ADHD. When it really isn't the parents fault, they have no choice in the system we are living in. But I think he may have changed his stance in later years as he got more into the root cause of things. What I am referring to was in a book I can't remember that I read years back, so things can change in time.

I certainly do.

I think you need to be careful with the word, "blame." That's not how I would say that he thinks. He takes a view that healthy mental development in childhood requires the presence of nurturing adults. He doesn't "blame" parents for being unable to provide that, but rather, he criticizes a system in which parents are ill-equipped to provide that.

It's a subtle distinction, but that sort of subtlety would be important to him.

I can't remember the exact way he put it, nor do I remember the book but it seemed to me he may have been blaming them. Thinking about it now, I probably misread the book but the thing is I can't remember the book that I read it in to reread it.

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Tensu
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16 Apr 2013, 10:22 pm

Robdemanc wrote:

Tensu wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

Tensu wrote:

I don't want 99.99% of what I see advertised.

That's only because you're not a NT.

NTs have free will too. And if there exists a person who lusts after every possession they see, I doubt getting rid of ads would help them significantly.

I already said we can see through an individual advert and dismiss it, but what is the effect on a child growing up seeing hundreds of adverts every day. They are basically being told: "You are not good enough without this!", "Your life will be better if you have this!" all the time. It is subliminal messaging. It is no wonder a lot of people grow up dissatisfied.[/quote

I think you're underestimating children. I remember being fairly dismissive of ads as a kid, thinking of them as little more than those annoying things between cartoons. I sometimes saw things I wanted, but accepted that I would never have them and forgot them. I saw more or less the same in other children.

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17 Apr 2013, 2:01 am

Fnord wrote:

BeautifulTechno wrote:

Hold on, are you basically saying that children should not keep up the pace of technology until they are 18? Well, in fact alienation is a serious problem, but should we be that radical?

It can't be both ways - either children are allowed to be children, or they learn to cope in a world that relies more on technology than social interaction.

And social interactions are directly related to Capitalism? Hmm.

Schneekugel
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17 Apr 2013, 2:37 am

Jacoby wrote:

without capitalism you'd be living in a cave right now

Nope, thats why capitalism never shows you advertisements for learning or history interests. They dont want you to learn, so they can tell you things like that and you believe them.

Maybe stop watching advertisements and look into some history books, then you will easily see that human built houses long before they invented money.

And while we are struggling with our nowadays money system, the first official reported and documented (by Hammurabi) money system was far smarter, then our nowadays. Seems that people had then more time and resources to think of themselves and others instead of watching advertisements and working to get the nonsense the advertisements told them they would need.

Robdemanc
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17 Apr 2013, 7:31 am

Tensu wrote:

Robdemanc wrote:

Tensu wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

Tensu wrote:

I don't want 99.99% of what I see advertised.

That's only because you're not a NT.

NTs have free will too. And if there exists a person who lusts after every possession they see, I doubt getting rid of ads would help them significantly.

Sorry but I think you are missing my point. Instead of thinking about an individual advert think about them as a whole, as a means to encourage consumerism. Then extend that thinking over a lifetime.

I am asking what is the effect on an individual being exposed to adverts every day of their lives? Whether or not they are taken in by an individual advert or not, the long term exposure is having an effect.

Fnord
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17 Apr 2013, 9:50 am

BeautifulTechno wrote:

Fnord wrote:

BeautifulTechno wrote:

Hold on, are you basically saying that children should not keep up the pace of technology until they are 18? Well, in fact alienation is a serious problem, but should we be that radical?

It can't be both ways - either children are allowed to be children, or they learn to cope in a world that relies more on technology than social interaction.

And social interactions are directly related to Capitalism? Hmm.

If you say so.

Right now, we're in the midst of a flood of consumerist technology, wherein people are more connected to entertainment and the media (as well as their gadgets) than they are connected to each other. It used to be that I could get as many as a dozen people to show up at my place to play poker, D&D, bridge, or to just bring their instruments over and jam. Now the only way to stay connected to these people is on line, and most are concerned more with owning the latest whiz-bang techno gadget than they are with keeping in touch.

People have traded in their friendships for the latest toys.

Capitalism is not at fault - selfishness and greed are to blame.

Schneekugel
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17 Apr 2013, 10:14 am

When its about children under the age of 10, in theory there is an easy solution, so kids at these age anyway shouldnt watch TV more then one hour a day and only together with a parent. The same goes for Internet, Youtube, ...

The thing is that many parent simply dont have that time to share it with their kids. Some out of their own will, because they want to earn money for materialism luxury. Many more simply out of need, to acchieve needed food, medications, ... Its sad, because in theory there would be ressources enough for everyone.

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17 Apr 2013, 12:55 pm

Fnord wrote:

and mandate a minimum of 2 hours each day of group sports for children between the ages of 5 and 18

2 hours of sport each day? I found the 2 hours a week at school too much already. I'm still pissed off we had to do all those useless things, and it hasn't made me like sports in any way.
I think poker is better group activity for children. They learn about probability, which is something most people suck at.

Fnord
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17 Apr 2013, 6:16 pm

trollcatman wrote:

Fnord wrote:

and mandate a minimum of 2 hours each day of group sports for children between the ages of 5 and 18

Good point! I hated phys ed too, but I would have shown up early every day for "Dungeons & Dragon" class!

8bitKnight
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17 Apr 2013, 6:52 pm

Fnord wrote:

trollcatman wrote:

Fnord wrote:

and mandate a minimum of 2 hours each day of group sports for children between the ages of 5 and 18

Good point! I hated phys ed too, but I would have shown up early every day for "Dungeons & Dragon" class!

Would have to agree or something Magic the Gathering related.

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Tensu
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17 Apr 2013, 9:12 pm

Robdemanc wrote:

If it's easy to dismiss one ad, why would it be hard to handle seeing ads in general?

Besides, most ads I see don't follow the "there is a void in your life that only our product can fill" format described earlier in this thread. Most ads contain a joke, or a dancing mascot, or some other such bull**** because advertisers know better than to believe they can brainwash the majority of the population into buying something they don't really want with an ad and instead just try to get the consumer's attention to the fact that their product exists.

I think blaming ads isn't any different than blaming video games, or blaming computers, or any of the other things people like to blame for the route our society has gone down. They aren't in any way responsible, they're just easier targets than the real issues.

Fnord
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17 Apr 2013, 10:10 pm

Tensu wrote:

... I think blaming ads isn't any different than blaming video games, or blaming computers, or any of the other things people like to blame for the route our society has gone down. They aren't in any way responsible, they're just easier targets than the real issues.

I see rampant consumerism as the "real issue" here, not Capitalism as a whole. The making of profit from one's own labor is commendable. Hiring others at a supportive wage to make that profit for you is also commendable.

If those others could make profit on their own, they would already be doing so - some people just aren't cut out take charge of an organization (or even their own lives) effectively enough to be the one who does the hiring.

It's when greed takes over (i.e., the "More and Bigger is Better For Me!" mindset) in any economic, political or religious system that out-of-control consumerism destroys that system from within. Sooner or later, selfish greed will bring down even the most righteous individual.

BeautifulTechno
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18 Apr 2013, 2:05 am

Fnord wrote:

Capitalism is not at fault - selfishness and greed are to blame.

Who's doing this then? Hey, we are to blame.

Fnord
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18 Apr 2013, 9:45 am

BeautifulTechno wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Capitalism is not at fault - selfishness and greed are to blame.

Who's doing this then? Hey, we are to blame.

What do you mean "we"?

I do volunteer work and donate to registered charities, and I live a relatively simple life, when compared to others in my income bracket.

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