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Does the Muslim LGBT movement have a future?

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Kraichgauer
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24 Apr 2013, 5:27 pm

I think LGBT rights among gay American Muslims will - and have mirrored - gains by other American gays. But then again, American Muslims are mostly a part of the American mainstream, and thus have the same attitudes of their countrymen, while elsewhere that's hardly the case. I very much fear for those LGBT folks in traditionally Islamic countries, and those in Europe where cultural isolation have left many Muslims susceptible to fundamentalism.

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Tequila
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24 Apr 2013, 5:30 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I think LGBT rights among American Muslims will - and have mirrored - gains by other American gays.


It does seem as though - in a considerable sense, although not entirely by any means - many Muslims in the U.S. have integrated rather well into U.S. society, because they have abandoned quite a lot of Islam and become more "culturally Muslim" or even entirely secular and integrationist. I don't have a problem with that, not at all - and I'd defend Muslims who were being attacked by obnoxious bigots purely for being Muslim.

This is not happening in Europe. In fact, the opposite is happening. Large parts of towns and inner cities are "Muslim areas", and they rule the roost, and Salafi-style Saudi fundamentalism is quite dominant, especially amongst many younger people now.

And this is being ably aided by our government and political elite, who fund the Islamists and make them community leaders and spokespeople, as though these people speak for all Muslims.

Thousands of women and girls have been genitally mutilated in this country, yet guess how many prosecutions there have been in, what is it, fifteen years? It carries a 14-year prison sentences here, or, rather, it would if anyone had ever been sent to prison for it.



Kraichgauer
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24 Apr 2013, 5:42 pm

Tequila wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I think LGBT rights among American Muslims will - and have mirrored - gains by other American gays.


It does seem as though - in a considerable sense, although not entirely by any means - many Muslims in the U.S. have integrated rather well into U.S. society, because they have abandoned quite a lot of Islam and become more "culturally Muslim" or even entirely secular and integrationist. I don't have a problem with that, not at all - and I'd defend Muslims who were being attacked by obnoxious bigots purely for being Muslim.

This is not happening in Europe. In fact, the opposite is happening. Large parts of towns and inner cities are "Muslim areas", and they rule the roost, and Salafi-style Saudi fundamentalism is quite dominant, especially amongst many younger people now.

And this is being ably aided by our government and political elite, who fund the Islamists and make them community leaders and spokespeople, as though these people speak for all Muslims.

Thousands of women and girls have been genitally mutilated in this country, yet guess how many prosecutions there have been in, what is it, fifteen years? It carries a 14-year prison sentences here, or, rather, it would if anyone had ever been sent to prison for it.


It's mind boggling that a monstrous practice like genital mutilation is winked at in any western country. The perpetrators and those who promote the practice should end up behind bars.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Tequila
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24 Apr 2013, 5:49 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
It's mind boggling that a monstrous practice like genital mutilation is winked at in any western country.


What's worse is that any suggestion that these practices are indeed disgusting and vile and that the prosecutors are bastards who should bloody well go to chokey for a long time is greeted with enraged cries of "racism" and "Islamophobia" or simple silence.

Prosecutions for genital mutilation: none. It might as well be legal.



Kraichgauer
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24 Apr 2013, 5:52 pm

Tequila wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
It's mind boggling that a monstrous practice like genital mutilation is winked at in any western country.


What's worse is that any suggestion that these practices are indeed disgusting and vile and that the prosecutors are bastards who should bloody well go to chokey for a long time is greeted with enraged cries of "racism" and "Islamophobia" or simple silence.

Prosecutions for genital mutilation: none. It might as well be legal.


:evil:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



thomas81
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24 Apr 2013, 5:53 pm

Tequila wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
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Does the Muslim LGBT movement have a future?


Perhaps only in Turkey and Lebanon.


It would be good to see strong LGBT Muslim groups in the West, but I haven't heard of any.

I might think they are loopy, but the courage of a group like that has my respect.


http://www.starjack.com/qmr.html


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Tequila
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24 Apr 2013, 6:03 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Tequila wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quote:
Does the Muslim LGBT movement have a future?


Perhaps only in Turkey and Lebanon.


It would be good to see strong LGBT Muslim groups in the West, but I haven't heard of any.

I might think they are loopy, but the courage of a group like that has my respect.


http://www.starjack.com/qmr.html


I recognise Imaan, but I've not heard much from them. They're very quiet - a bit like the British Muslims for Secular Democracy. You very rarely hear from them. They are there, but a mouse's fart is louder.



thomas81
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24 Apr 2013, 6:22 pm

I think whats interesting the stuff in the bible that condemns homosexuality is more specific and less open to interpretation than the stuff in the quaran,

According to the FAQ on the Imaan website, there is no language in the Quaran that says homosexuality specifically is wrong. The problem therefore in regards to the LGBT community is not Islam but control freak patriarchs who don't wish to rock the boat.


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Kraichgauer
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24 Apr 2013, 9:22 pm

thomas81 wrote:
I think whats interesting the stuff in the bible that condemns homosexuality is more specific and less open to interpretation than the stuff in the quaran,

According to the FAQ on the Imaan website, there is no language in the Quaran that says homosexuality specifically is wrong. The problem therefore in regards to the LGBT community is not Islam but control freak patriarchs who don't wish to rock the boat.


And yet, there are very few if any Christian denominations that would seriously do bodily harm to gays in this day and age.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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24 Apr 2013, 10:08 pm

I never understood the animosity towards gays when so many seemed to be taking part in said behavior.


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25 Apr 2013, 12:23 am

thomas81 wrote:
I think whats interesting the stuff in the bible that condemns homosexuality is more specific and less open to interpretation than the stuff in the quaran,

According to the FAQ on the Imaan website, there is no language in the Quaran that says homosexuality specifically is wrong. The problem therefore in regards to the LGBT community is not Islam but control freak patriarchs who don't wish to rock the boat.


That's correct. The most violent parts come from the Hadith - which was never written by Muhammad or one person, but rather most parts were written long after his death, only by hearsay, or hearsay of hearsay, or rumours. Much of the hadith is like playing parts of the game chinese whispers. Often the most culturally binding parts of what is today are considered Islam come from the Hadith - which is rather ironic, because you would think it would be logical to place more weight on the word of the prophet in the Qu'ran, as it was intended.

And it is precisely on those grounds than many Muslims, especially many well educated queer or gay Muslim women, support Muslim LGBT rights.

And that is without going into the internal contradictions that the texts contain.


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naturalplastic
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25 Apr 2013, 7:58 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I think whats interesting the stuff in the bible that condemns homosexuality is more specific and less open to interpretation than the stuff in the quaran,

According to the FAQ on the Imaan website, there is no language in the Quaran that says homosexuality specifically is wrong. The problem therefore in regards to the LGBT community is not Islam but control freak patriarchs who don't wish to rock the boat.


And yet, there are very few if any Christian denominations that would seriously do bodily harm to gays in this day and age.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Unless members of said denominations live in subsaharan africa!

Zambia just outlawed homosexuality, and its an animist and or christian country thousands of miles from the Islamic north of africa.

Gays are mistreated in many parts of the third world- not just in muslim countries.



IDontGetIt
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25 Apr 2013, 8:10 am

Both the bible and the koran were written in ancient times, when human knowledge was a lot less than it is now, and social attitudes were very different. These books can only be based on what was available at the time. To live in the 21st century and base any moral and cultural ideas on their contents is not always going to be a good idea.



thomas81
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25 Apr 2013, 8:30 am

IDontGetIt wrote:
Both the bible and the koran were written in ancient times, when human knowledge was a lot less than it is now, and social attitudes were very different. These books can only be based on what was available at the time. To live in the 21st century and base any moral and cultural ideas on their contents is not always going to be a good idea.


Call it a foregone conclusion but the actual problem resides in the argument between non believers and believers whether these books represent the infallible words of god or are manmade.


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Kraichgauer
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25 Apr 2013, 12:11 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I think whats interesting the stuff in the bible that condemns homosexuality is more specific and less open to interpretation than the stuff in the quaran,

According to the FAQ on the Imaan website, there is no language in the Quaran that says homosexuality specifically is wrong. The problem therefore in regards to the LGBT community is not Islam but control freak patriarchs who don't wish to rock the boat.


And yet, there are very few if any Christian denominations that would seriously do bodily harm to gays in this day and age.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Unless members of said denominations live in subsaharan africa!

Zambia just outlawed homosexuality, and its an animist and or christian country thousands of miles from the Islamic north of africa.

Gays are mistreated in many parts of the third world- not just in muslim countries.


I stand corrected. I meant to say those Christian churches in western countries.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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25 Apr 2013, 1:02 pm

Alfonso12345 wrote:
You really have no proof that the Koran was dictated by a god and that the Bible was only inspired by this same god. Couldn't the Bible just as easily be dictated by this god while the Koran is not? Could they both be only inspired by a god? Is it possible that maybe none of them were either dictated or inspired by a god? Any of those possibilities are possible, but there isn't any evidence available that either were inspired or dictated by a god.


Of course I have no proof, because there is none.
Most mainstream Christian denominations believe the books in the bible are written by people, probably with some divine inspiration or guidance, and much later put together by several councils who decided what books should be in the bible and what books should not be in the bible. This took centuries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmen ... ment_canon

Most mainstream Muslim denominations believe the koran was literally recited to the prophet by god. Of course there is no proof for that, what proof could there possibly be except god coming down to earth and tell everyone?
I'm not religious so I don't believe any books are divinely inspired.