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xenon13
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15 Jun 2013, 3:58 am

People who engage in peaceful protest have been branded terrorists by law enforcement. It's the criminalisation of dissent and the possibility to keep political prisoners indefinitely without trial.



vermontsavant
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15 Jun 2013, 10:45 am

i posted wrong.when iforgot to put in not before would.

I would NOT vote for this bill


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wittgenstein
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15 Jun 2013, 11:01 am

It is confusing. If you vote NO, it means you believe that Americans should be held without trial for decades. I made the same mistake in the OP. To my eternal embarrassment! :oops: :D
It was an amendment that stated that Americans be excluded from indefinite detention.
Sometimes I think politicians purposefully make things confusing so we wont know what they are up to!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/1 ... 37923.html
From the information at that site I will have to say that Rep. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) hates America and the Constitution.
----------
"This time around, the line is absolutely clear. Smith and Amash proposed that the government actually has to prove you're guilty of a crime before depriving you of your liberty, something that the founding fathers found significant enough to write into the Constitution. Their opponents want the government to have the power to lock up American citizens without ever convicting them of anything, just because it says someone is a terrorist. Their proposal went down by a vote of 182-231, with only a handful of Republicans joining Amash in support."
FROM
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2 ... -terrorist


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15 Jun 2013, 12:42 pm

I haven't read through the bill and I may not BUT I do have this to say in general about the practice of imprisoning people without trial on the grounds of loosely defined charges/or suspicion.
A lot of people don't know it but the genesis of the Nazi concentration camps, Dachau being a good example, was for holding "political" prisoners on loosely defined charges without trial for indefinite periods of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protective_custody

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In Nazi Germany, the German equivalent term, 'Schutzhaft', was used as a euphemism for the extra- or para-legal rounding-up of political opponents and especially Jews, sometimes officially defended as being necessary to protect them from the 'righteous' wrath of the German population. Schutzhaft did not provide for a judicial warrant, in fact the detainee would most probably never have seen a judge. The victims were then sent to concentration camps.


With that I have to wonder if the threat of terrorism from within is worth the risk of abuse of power.
Something to ponder, anyway.

I'll go back under my bridge, now.....


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wittgenstein
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15 Jun 2013, 3:06 pm

It is amazing that 231 "representatives " ( they obviously dont represent the American citizen) hate America and the Constitution! It is also amazing that most Americans do not care about the Constitution and even insult those that do! As I said, we used to be the land of the free and home of the brave. Now we are the land of the unfree and home of the wienies.


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Last edited by wittgenstein on 15 Jun 2013, 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AgentPalpatine
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15 Jun 2013, 3:09 pm

In all fairness, did you ask those 231 elected US Representatives why they voted against the amendment? It's more than a small jump from "voted against an amendment" to what you expressed above.

For that matter, do you know why your US Represenative voted the way that they did?


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15 Jun 2013, 3:15 pm

Their argument is that imprisoning Americans for decades without trial will help defeat the enemies of freedom. OK, perhaps they are total morons. Either way they are a disaster for our country.


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xenon13
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15 Jun 2013, 8:14 pm

They say that there is this War of Terror and that PoWs must be kept until Terror is defeated. Why not do this with the War of Drugs. Just have the Military Police grab people they suspect as being involved in Drugs, and make them PoWs of Drugs and keep them in prison until Drugs are defeated.



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15 Jun 2013, 9:21 pm

xenon13 wrote:
They say that there is this War of Terror and that PoWs must be kept until Terror is defeated. Why not do this with the War of Drugs. Just have the Military Police grab people they suspect as being involved in Drugs, and make them PoWs of Drugs and keep them in prison until Drugs are defeated.


Shhhhhhh! Don't give them any ideas.


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wittgenstein
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15 Jun 2013, 9:27 pm

Herd * that, compensated for that, and no one will know that I am actually big bro! :D
* As in ears. And also herd mentality.


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ruveyn
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15 Jun 2013, 9:58 pm

xenon13 wrote:
People who engage in peaceful protest have been branded terrorists by law enforcement. It's the criminalisation of dissent and the possibility to keep political prisoners indefinitely without trial.


Can you document a single instance where people peaceably petitioning for redress of grievances have been arrested and imprisoned without trial. Please reference a reputable public source, either a reputable journal of record or a public archive.

ruveyn



Last edited by ruveyn on 15 Jun 2013, 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xenon13
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15 Jun 2013, 10:15 pm

So far political prisoners have been eventually subject to rigged trials, though if you take someone like Bradley Manning he was held for a very long time before trial. Police have been describing peaceful demonstrators as terrorists. It is my opinion that if the tendencies continue, dissidents will be subject to indefinite detention though the one thing that might prevent this is that show trials are too tempting to pass up if they can be sure of the result.



ruveyn
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15 Jun 2013, 10:25 pm

xenon13 wrote:
So far political prisoners have been eventually subject to rigged trials, though if you take someone like Bradley Manning he was held for a very long time before trial. Police have been describing peaceful demonstrators as terrorists. It is my opinion that if the tendencies continue, dissidents will be subject to indefinite detention though the one thing that might prevent this is that show trials are too tempting to pass up if they can be sure of the result.


Bradley Manning was not peacefully petitioning the government for redress of grievances (as described in the first amendment). He was leaking documents and was probably in breach of several laws prohibiting the dissemination of classified material.

Manning should have been tried by now. Either convicted or acquitted.

ruveyn



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15 Jun 2013, 11:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
People who engage in peaceful protest have been branded terrorists by law enforcement. It's the criminalisation of dissent and the possibility to keep political prisoners indefinitely without trial.


Can you document a single instance where people peaceably petitioning for redress of grievances have been arrested and imprisoned without trial. Please reference a reputable public source, either a reputable journal of record or a public archive.

ruveyn

Martin Luther King. Need more specifics?


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xenon13
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16 Jun 2013, 3:10 am

People have been imprisoned beyond the legal limit without charge in relation to protests. The 2004 RNC in New York was an example of this.



DeaconBlues
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17 Jun 2013, 3:08 pm

xenon13 wrote:
They say that there is this War of Terror and that PoWs must be kept until Terror is defeated. Why not do this with the War of Drugs. Just have the Military Police grab people they suspect as being involved in Drugs, and make them PoWs of Drugs and keep them in prison until Drugs are defeated.

Well, there's been a War on Poverty going on since the LBJ administration...


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