Page 3 of 3 [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

20 Jun 2013, 1:27 pm

RushKing wrote:
Raptor wrote:
RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
We should be paying taxes for Peace and Quiet, Law and Order.

Government only can promote order in the society. It cannot promote Goodness.

ruveyn

You are using the word government as if is synonymous with state. States are not peaceful, they are violent protectors of tyranny. I don't believe defense should ever be delegated to a 3rd party institution.


There are few States which have no government and in almost all cases the State and the Government are tightly intertwined. There are no good governments, anywhere. There are only bad governments and worse governments.
There have never been any good governments or governments that ended up good, and there never will be. Why?
Human nature.

ruveyn

You can't do away with government, but you can do away with states. States maintain hierarchys with violence, they do not bring about peace. Its easy to look around and say, well this is human nature. Not really, our actions are being controlled by violent institutions. Our minds our being shaped by the institutions that control the mass media. We can change, but it wont be easy do to the power structure's grip over our lives.


State violence is controlled by human nature.

Back then, there were people who viewed chattel slavery like wind. Would we have attempt to free chattel slaves if we thought we were incapable of freeing them? I do not want to accept statism, because doing so may help create a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't know the future of mankind, and neither do you.


Yes, I can see it coming; if someone is for states rights then they must obviously support slavery. Just go ahead and say it and get it out of your system.
I don't know the future either but I like to stay on the side of caution when it comes to government.
Government is corrupt and breeds corruption as it always has and always will so I'm for keeping it small as a matter of damage control.


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


CSBurks
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 766

20 Jun 2013, 1:46 pm

My Haemorrhoid medication.



RushKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,340
Location: Minnesota, United States

20 Jun 2013, 2:10 pm

Raptor wrote:
Yes, I can see it coming; if someone is for states rights then they must obviously support slavery. Just go ahead and say it and get it out of your system.
I don't know the future either but I like to stay on the side of caution when it comes to government.
Government is corrupt and breeds corruption as it always has and always will so I'm for keeping it small as a matter of damage control.

Everyone has their own interpretation of what small government is which is why I don't like the term. I personally don't want cops and military, communities can defend themselves. If the majority cops disobey their rulers they can free themselves, the land and the workplaces. The employer employee relationship can be destroyed because there is no need for it.



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

20 Jun 2013, 4:04 pm

The purpose of taxes is to pay for welfare.



Pileo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 523

21 Jun 2013, 3:47 am

I'm a firm believer that taxes can be a great tool for good. However, the money must be spent on the people in the form of public services, infrastructure and tax returns. I am against spending obscene amounts on military, funding dictators (Bahrain, for example), government programs that go against the constitution (NSA/Prism) and corporate subsidies.



auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 115,255
Location: the island of defective toy santas

21 Jun 2013, 5:55 pm

I want my taxes to pay for "little people's" welfare and not corporate welfare. for national happiness and not just big wig's happiness. health care for all, not just for the rich. comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.



Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 61
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,550
Location: Aux Arcs

21 Jun 2013, 7:05 pm

More solar power for us doves,then then there's more JP for the hawks.They already suck up most of it.Greedy birds :lol:
And everyone has health insurance,dental and free sterilization for all.


_________________
I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi


ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 122
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

23 Jun 2013, 12:41 pm

Raptor wrote:
Government is corrupt and breeds corruption as it always has and always will so I'm for keeping it small as a matter of damage control.


But, your livelihood is dependent upon a large, corrupt government that can shell out money to contractors.



Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

23 Jun 2013, 11:35 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Government is corrupt and breeds corruption as it always has and always will so I'm for keeping it small as a matter of damage control.


But, your livelihood is dependent upon a large, corrupt government that can shell out money to contractors.


:roll:
1. The government, even a small government, is dependent on government contractors to some degree for reasons I shouldn't have to explain.
2. If you do believe that my existence depends solely on leeching off of large corrupt government then you should be in favor a much smaller and more frugal government in order to starve me and my kind out.

Govt. contractors are the source of a lot more than defense related products and services.
Most of my co-workers are conservative so think of the jubilation you'd experience knowing that they'll all starve and not be able to vote and spread hate any more.
The price? You'll have to settle for a smaller and more spartan government that won't be able to take care of and be a nanny you.


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


VIDEODROME
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,691

24 Jun 2013, 12:44 am

Government and the Law should basically just be for security. The more obvious things would be police, firemen, and some military and the Navy to maintain order on ocean routes.

I also think National Weather Service as an early warning for weather conditions can be viewed as a security service letting us know about severe weather, hurricanes, and tornado conditions.

I would consider a modest social safety net a kind of security as well. It should be modest because I do think most social safety nets should come from family or independent aid groups. I don't think government is up to things like catastrophic illness like Cancer, but I think it could be prudent to make sure people aren't letting small problems grow into chronic illnesses or that kids in poor families are not getting basic care. It's not just about helping them, but avoiding an embarrassing situation where the needy are neglected and become a breeding ground for human diseases.

Local taxes could be more specific. Northern places could pay for street plows and road salt. I think the State level is where decisions should also be made on placement of highways. I'm not really a fan of the creation of the Interstate Highway system. If I had my way that system would not have been funded and interstate travel would have been handled by Airplane and Railroad.

I think that covers a good minimal role government at different levels can have.


I am kind of undecided on NASA. In some ways, I think it could be argued that a space presence is an extension of the Navy and Airforce covering truly international territory and satellites are used to communicate with our ships while providing GPS. Also, we have our weather satellites.

Beyond that we have deep space exploration with probes and the Hubble Telescope. Aside from early warning against Asteroids, I'm not sure I believe this is technically where tax money should be spent.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

24 Jun 2013, 4:36 am

My 5 cents (primarily from an economic perspective):

For me, the rationale for public expenditure (and thus taxes, unless the government has another source of income like oil) is for the production of public goods.
The standard textbook definition of a public good is a good which is non-excludable (my consumption of the good does not adversely impact your consumption of the good) and non-rivalrous (people cannot be excluded from consuming the good).

  1. Public goods that should be produced by the government
    Examples: Political institutions, Law Enforcement, Court Systems for Arbitration, National Defense

    I find these pretty self-explanatory. If you disagree, then feel free to take it up with your local militia.
  2. Public goods that should be regulated, but not necessarily produced, by government
    Examples: Intellectual achievements, Environmental Protection

    These goods frequently - absent some sort of regulation - suffer from market failure. But by creating patents, for instance, scientific achievements can be turned into market goods. Similarly, assigning property rights to environmental resources (or often the opposite: pollution) through cap-and-trade systems, one can create markets (and ideally, market efficiency) for otherwise non-excludable goods.
  3. Semi-public goods that could be produced either by governments, markets or a combination
    Examples: Health care, Infrastructure, Education

    This category is a mess. Strictly speaking, for instance, health care (except infectious diseases) is a private good. However, health care suffers from information asymmetry, meaning that consumers/patients have a very hard time identifying their actual need for health care. Infrastructure can (and is often) provided by private institutions. However, much of infrastructure is characterized by massive economies of scale, leading to the formation of natural monopolies (which are unlikely to produce goods efficiently). Education has public good components: It is beneficial to the individual getting the education, but it is also beneficial to society as a whole.

    In all of these cases, however, who should produce the good is a matter of efficiency: An efficiently run government (however, see below) is probably better at delivering health care than the market. An inefficiently run government should probably restrict itself to regulation rather than production of these goods.
  4. Private (market) goods
    Get Off My Lawn, G-Man!
(Not an exhaustive list of examples.)

Some caveats:

- The value of public goods. Who gets to decide what constitutes a public good? And what its value is? The value of a market good is its price. What is the value of Affirmative Action, The British Monarchy, Biodiversity, § 295-C of the Pakistan Penal Code, and the Max Planck Society?

- Excess burden of taxation. Taxes generate dead-weight losses, so if the government is using taxpayer money to produce something, it needs to produce value exceeding the tax revenue to be efficient. For some goods, this is easily achieved: The economic benefits of private property rights vastly exceed the costs of enforcing them, for instance. The economic benefits of criminalizing marijuana (if any), on the other hand, well... just saying.

- Efficiency as a goal. Governments - unlike markets - are not supposed to be (only) efficient. They are supposed to be accountable to voters, transparent, and responsive to all 23,587 additional stakeholders. Private companies, on the other hand: MR=MC. This puts government at a disadvantage compared to markets, as a guiding principle cannot be formulated by the requirement of maximizing two (or more) functions at once. However, if one designed governments to be exclusively efficient, they would probably also be more prone to corruption as the necessary checks and balances would not be in place. Thus spoke Aristotle.