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What is your favorite president/PM in your lifetime?

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CSBurks
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19 Jun 2013, 7:23 pm

Don't have one; they were all terrible.



Kraichgauer
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19 Jun 2013, 7:33 pm

Raptor wrote:
/\ You give Lincoln too much credit. The average American in the Union states was much more for preserving the Union than abolition.
We've already had that discussion, though.


Lincoln was able to turn a war for preserving the union into a war of liberation. Otherwise, he couldn't have gotten abolition passed. The notion of keeping southerners in the country who didn't want to remain had seemed vague and even questionable to most northerners. But a war to end slavery gave the union cause a moral core.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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19 Jun 2013, 7:44 pm

The incentive of the average northerner was to keep the United States from dividing and then very possibly dividing again and again into smaller countries until it became a second bloody Europe. About the only reason your average Pennsylvania farmer would have taken up arms against slavery is because he couldn't buy a few to work his fields like his brother farmers in Virginia could (i.e. envy).
Practicality was simply more important 150 years ago than it is now.....


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19 Jun 2013, 7:52 pm

Raptor wrote:
The incentive of the average northerner was to keep the United States from dividing and then very possibly dividing again and again into smaller countries until it became a second bloody Europe. About the only reason your average Pennsylvania farmer would have taken up arms against slavery is because he couldn't buy a few to work his fields like his brother farmers in Virginia could (i.e. envy).
Practicality was simply more important 150 years ago than it is now.....


Envy? According to whom? Neo-Confederates?
As I had stated, the war had started out as a war to keep the country together, and for many - if not most - that remained their primary motivation. But slavery had been seen as greatly immoral among most northerners, and when abolition had become a real goal, it provided a rallying cry for the union that had not been there preciously. Most German immigrants to America at that time - who associated slavery with the authoritarianism they had fled in Germany - gladly joined the union cause for the fight to end slavery.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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19 Jun 2013, 8:12 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Envy? According to whom? Neo-Confederates?
As I had stated, the war had started out as a war to keep the country together, and for many - if not most - that remained their primary motivation. But slavery had been seen as greatly immoral among most northerners,

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Slavery was thought to be immoral by many, but few white folks, either in the North or South liked Negroes. The general consensus in the white population were that Negroes were lesser than Whites. There was also heavy prejudice against aboriginal peoples (aka "injuns"). In the Northeast, the Irish were heavily discriminated against. America has always been a racist country.

ruveyn



Last edited by ruveyn on 19 Jun 2013, 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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19 Jun 2013, 8:16 pm

That was actually a copy & paste from one of our other discussions on this topic.
I figure I might as well recycle. :D
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf216558-0-285.html

The emancipation proclamation was just another log thrown on the fire to keep it burning after the pasting the union took at Fredericksburg. As far as who fought on what side depended on where one's home was. Do you think there was some huge north/south migration based on philosophy?


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19 Jun 2013, 9:52 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Envy? According to whom? Neo-Confederates?
As I had stated, the war had started out as a war to keep the country together, and for many - if not most - that remained their primary motivation. But slavery had been seen as greatly immoral among most northerners,

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Slavery was thought to be immoral by many, but few white folks, either in the North or South liked Negroes. The general consensus in the white population were that Negroes were lesser than Whites. There was also heavy prejudice against aboriginal peoples (aka "injuns"). In the Northeast, the Irish were heavily discriminated against. America has always been a racist country.

ruveyn


That is absolutely true.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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19 Jun 2013, 9:58 pm

Raptor wrote:
That was actually a copy & paste from one of our other discussions on this topic.
I figure I might as well recycle. :D
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf216558-0-285.html

The emancipation proclamation was just another log thrown on the fire to keep it burning after the pasting the union took at Fredericksburg. As far as who fought on what side depended on where one's home was. Do you think there was some huge north/south migration based on philosophy?


There were in fact plenty of "Union" men in the south who had served in the Army of the Potomac. And others, such as Newton Knight and his band of Confederate deserters and escaped slaves who had carried on non-stop guerrilla warfare against the Confederacy.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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19 Jun 2013, 10:30 pm

They were but a small minority in the bigger scheme of things.
The primary purpose of that war was the re-unification of the United States, not the moral crusade you make it out to be.


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19 Jun 2013, 11:04 pm

Obama



Kraichgauer
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20 Jun 2013, 12:27 am

Raptor wrote:
They were but a small minority in the bigger scheme of things.
The primary purpose of that war was the re-unification of the United States, not the moral crusade you make it out to be.


Of course the main point was the reunification of the country. But the only way that could be permanently achieved was by eliminating slavery. And the abolitionist cause was without a doubt a moral one.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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20 Jun 2013, 6:12 am

reagan,nixon and thatcher


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20 Jun 2013, 9:04 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
And the abolitionist cause was without a doubt a moral one.


Did someone say that it wasn't?


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20 Jun 2013, 12:28 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
And the abolitionist cause was without a doubt a moral one.


Did someone say that it wasn't?


Ask plenty of Neo-Confederates, and they'll tell you it wasn't.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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20 Jun 2013, 1:46 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
And the abolitionist cause was without a doubt a moral one.


Did someone say that it wasn't?


Ask plenty of Neo-Confederates, and they'll tell you it wasn't.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The Neo-Confederates you're talking about are a small minority that will only taper out in time.


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20 Jun 2013, 2:16 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
And the abolitionist cause was without a doubt a moral one.


Did someone say that it wasn't?


Ask plenty of Neo-Confederates, and they'll tell you it wasn't.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The Neo-Confederates you're talking about are a small minority that will only taper out in time.


They're a very loud minority who know how to court political support - such as from intellectual giants like Haley Barbour, and that guy who called Obama a liar at a presidential address. And such individuals seem to keep on breeding, and passing their poisonous ideology to the next generation.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer